Trouble shooting an Armour Stamp

[Tableau]

So I've been working on building myself a touch mark, mostly for contemporary blacksmith stuff, but I might also use it on armour. It's going alright, but I have some issues. It's about a quarter inch, maybe a bit less, and the design is a positive K, defined by a circle of negative space. the problem I'm having is getting a good, deep, well defined strike. I tried it out cold of sheet metal, and it really did very little. I want to be able to use it on armour, so I was hoping that would work out. Well, I figured it would work much better hot, and I stupidly stamped it straight on a knife and a draw knife that were ready for heat treating. It worked OK but really not deep enough. http://imgur.com/a/SVvjd in that photo, the actual stamp had it's face ground smooth so that I could try striking the positive K into it again, hoping to get a deeper stamp.



So I figure, I bet it would strike easier and deeper if instead of a circle, I just do a border around the k. But them I'm looking through pictures of armour, in the regular course of my research and I notice this: http://imgur.com/Mr6NmC7 rather similar to what I'm trying to do. Upon further research, I found that a fair number of medieval armourer's marks have a similar recessed background with lots of shape, rather than just lines.

So how do you guys strike your marks? I imagine doing it hot is going to be a must. Probably have to hit it harder, too. I'm thinking I'll get someone to strike with a sledge, but I don't think a lot of modern guys are using strikers

So? How do you do it!?

[Mac]

The bigger the punch, and the more metal it has to displace, the harder you have to hit it. It's important to have the work backed up solidly, and to use a heavy hammer. It frequently takes more than one strike to make a complete impression, so you want to make sure that some part of the punch digs in deeply enough on the first strike that you can get it lined back up again for the subsequent ones.

There are authentic examples of marks with multiple partial impressions and other such imperfections. I think this means that we are not the first people to have this trouble.

Mac

[Tableau]

Interesting. It seems like it would be best to do it in one shot. I gave the punch another try today, and I did some practice this time before stamping anything important. It worked out better. Just a bit of confidence and a good firm strike. On my practice piece, I tried completing a partial stamp with a second hit, but it wasn't working out at all. Maybe just the shape of my stamp doesn't lend itself well to that? I don't know.

It is a really small stamp though. I'm going to try it out on a breastplate I've been working on, and I'm hoping it all goes well. If not, I guess it's not the biggest deal ever. The bp itself is supposed to be a practice piece, and it's not perfect, so I won't be too sad if I mess up the stamp. But with the number of hours I've put in planishing the thing, it still feels like a high stakes situation.

[Mac]

On my practice piece, I tried completing a partial stamp with a second hit, but it wasn't working out at all. Maybe just the shape of my stamp doesn't lend itself well to that? I don't know.

The trick is to find the partial impression by sliding the punch around until it locks in. This goes better with practice and a calm mind.

Mac

[Tableau]

Do you do this hot or cold?

[Mac]

Cold.

If you have been trying to line the punch up for a second strike on hot work, I see why you weren't having a good time.

Mac

[Otto von Teich]

Do you think its easier if the work is hot on the first strike? Maybe eliminating the need for a second?

[Mac]

I suspect that makers of knives, swords, tools, etc. can strike their marks on hot work with relative ease. The work is thick and it sits on the anvil without much trouble.

Armor, on the other hand, is a different thing. The work is relatively thin and and will loose its heat rapidly. Further, because of its shape, it must be positioned on a stake, rather than an anvil. If it is positioned poorly, the act of striking the mark will dent the work badly. That damage would have to be repaired without messing up the mark. I don't think that it's practicable to strike the mark hot on most armor.

Now, that said, perhaps I underestimate how fast and how accurately a pro can get his work positioned while holding it with tongs. In any case, he would need a second person to help. This is job would take a minimum of three hands.

While we are thinking about maker's marks, we need to consider "view marks" and "arsenal marks". These mostly appear to have been put in when the plates nearly or completely finished. Sometimes view marks are struck badly, and the area around them has been deformed. In these cases the deformed areas are smoothly finished. Therefore, the mark must have been stamped in after the piece was ground, and perhaps after it was polished as well.

Mac

[wcallen]

Many of these really are pretty lousy...

I don't have any reason to suspect that these marks aren't original:
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-254-marks.jpg
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-255-marks.jpg

A really lousy stamp:
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-210-a.jpg (up near the neck)

These aren't bad, but still not perfect:
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-19-marks.jpg

If Pierre T. is to believed, the last ones were the maker and city marks put on a breastplate by a known maker who was (at least) a double master (in breasts and backs) and who marked this particular piece. So it isn't the lowest of the low quality stuff.

I am sure I could find plenty of other "not so nice" marks.

And they really do appear to have been stamped onto reasonably complete pieces.

This only vaguely relates, but there are indications of marks being added even after items were shipped. Thom Richardson describes a process to add James II marks to items in the inventory of arms in the 17th c. That would have been unhardened armour. I don't expect that a lot of marks would be added to a well-hardened and tempered piece after that process was complete without having to mess up the temper in that area.

Wade

[Tableau]

Yes, I see what you're saying about arsenal marks and view marks. Trying to get a second strike hot is pretty damn hard.

Yesterday I was making a base for a candelabra, and I was using 16g which I had dished out. I marked it hot on a stake on my own, but it is much smaller and easier to handle than a breastplate. I'll have to try some more tests cold. But I do feel fairly confident that I could strike a mark hot on a breastplate with a second set of hands. I wonder if armourer's marks are often larger than arsenal marks, since it's easier to strike a smaller mark cold?

Is it the norm to have to use multiple strikes? From my limited attempts to strike a mark cold, it really seems quite impossible to do it in one go, but I'll see if practicing the strength and precision of my blows.

Wade, I often wondered if marks that appeared to be struck too shallow on pieces like that were not just the result of years of wear/restoration. Even so, it's clear that some marks are still more shallow than others. Also, the scissor stamp is really cool! Makes me think that my mark is a little bit too small and simple. It was mostly just an exploration into the process. I can always make a better mark when I have a better idea of what the hell I'm doing.

[Mac]

I certainly expect to have to strike several times to get a good impression, but it's something I do so infrequently that I am not really well practiced at it. On the other end of the spectrum are the guys who used to beat gold into leaf, or the guys who struck coins. Those guys would probably laugh at us for not being able make good with one strike.

I remember, many years ago, showing the primo-stick-jock in my SCA group how I was having trouble making a good impression with my first maker's mark punch. He said I was just not hitting it hard enough, and offered to give it a try. I handed him the punch, and he took up my largest hammer (the one called Kahuna) and proceeded to make some very nice impressions in some scrap. I was miffed. All it apparently took was righteous conviction and a reckless disregard for safety. I suppose I could learn to do that, but I would have to grow a third testicle.

As an aside, I don't think you would want to use the same punch for both hot and cold work. The hot punch does not need to be nearly so hard as the one you use on cold stuff. If you used your "cold punch" on hot work, you could easily draw the temper and ruin it the next time you tried to use it on cold work.

Mac