Arm defense in the early 12th Century

Ld. Ondart de Clermont · Tue Apr 17, 2001 4:52 pm

Here's my problem: I play a 12th century crusader/Templar. And I wear a hauberk that presently covers my arms. (I wear lacrosse "arms" under my gambeson and hauberk.) But since I'm in the process of trading my welded stainless hauberk for one in aluminum and half-sleeved... (Yeah, sorry, but I can't handle 40lbs of armor just for show any more. I'm getting old(er) and it's getting hard!) Call me names if you must, but I've made my decision and will live with the ridicule.

Now, I need to replace my lacrosse arms with something more visible. I have a very nice gambeson and would just as soon not have to cut it down to match the new hauberk so I was thinking about some leather vambraces with leather elbow cops. Besides wax/water hardening, what can you offer me that will provide better protection than just leather alone? What I'm trying to ask is can I get away with splints, rings, studs, ??? I need some period ideas that'll work within the context of the SCA. Help me!!

Some more information, I'm a Norman who has traveled extensively in France, Italy and most parts of the Holy Land. I'm not opposed to "looting" a pair of arms from the Infidel on the battlefield if you know what I mean. For your viewing pleasure, here's a pic of me in my current rig.

[img]http://members.iquest.net/~borokotor/image002.jpg[/img]

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Ld. Ondart de Clermont
Squire to Ivar Rhidri Eithr Drenger
Haus Kriegsturm
Barony of Sternfeld
Middle Kingdom
House Kriegsturm Message Board

[This message has been edited by Ld. Ondart de Clermont (edited 04-17-2001).]

Gaston · Post by **Gaston** » Tue Apr 17, 2001 6:35 pm

How about some unresearched wildass ideas?

Bazubands are Middle Eastern, but I know not if they'd be appropriate. The Osprey "Knight of Outremer" shows a European knight with similar defenses in the 14thC, but I don't know if they would be an option earlier. Norman would be a good one to ask.

You're in contact (like it or not) with the Byzantines, who have worn cuir bollei and splinted armour for centuries (I don't know if they are still wearing it in your timeframe, but I believe they are). It wouldn't be much of a stretch to use that, if it's contemporary to your impression.

We can talk more, I spent some time portraying a Byzantine/Varangian and did much research. Come to Popo Agy. Lots of whisky and white women. (obscure reference to "The Mountain Men", Heston/Keith, and an equally obscure invite to our Kinser event.

Sure like to see you there, lots of fun and time to talk of such things.

The Lost Scott · Post by **The Lost Scott** » Tue Apr 17, 2001 9:04 pm

Hey that surcoat looks familar glad to see it is holding up well.
I have a freind hear who is the McPherson of leather workers, He could make you amazing carved vambaces and rear braces (cuisses and greaves also). I have seen in some effigies things of that nature find some nice raised elbow cops with roundel (wombat makes some). That could work well for you maybe.
I'll send you my friend information. BTW he does a templar personna also full maille and all.

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Tue Apr 17, 2001 9:58 pm

Keep your current kit, and do some push-ups. Wait to you see ME waddle around at Kinser! Then you'll think old....

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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"

Ld. Ondart de Clermont · Tue Apr 17, 2001 10:34 pm

Gaston: Thank you for the information and the invitation. I wish I could head down there, but unfortunately I will be unable to attend. Perhaps at Border Raids we might get together and by then I'll have come up with something to show off.

Lost Scott: I'm looking forward to your post.

Bascot: Heh heh, you were old when I first joined the SCA 10 years ago...

Just kidding, of course!!! Don't hit me, please!

(I sure hope you remember me as this will come across very poorly otherwise.) Maybe I'll start wearing the hauberk around the house and try and get used to it. But that *sure* sounds a lot like work to me...

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Ld. Ondart de Clermont
Squire to Ivar Rhidri Eithr Drenger
Haus Kriegsturm
Barony of Sternfeld
Middle Kingdom
House Kriegsturm Message Board

Templar Bob/De Tyre · Post by **Templar Bob/De Tyre** » Wed Apr 18, 2001 6:58 am

Ondart:

One of the things I did to get around that problem was to have a gambeson with interior pockets for plates (you may remember it---it was practically a Wisby coat), and among the innovations were splint pockets stitched to the inside. The main snag is that it makes for an uncomfortably hot armour (Kydex plates don't allow for much air circulation!). The only other practical option I can think of is to bump your persona portrayal up to circa 1280-1300.

Ask Beth Woodard about the pocketed gambeson she made me....

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Robert Coleman, Jr.

The Noble Companie and Order of St. Maurice

Those who beat their swords into plowshares end up plowing for those who don't.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Wed Apr 18, 2001 11:45 am

Ondart,
this may stretch things a bit -
but if insist on 12th cent, and you need visible, then you kinda have to --

There's a statue on a French Cathedral (not sure if Chartres or not - its in Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight) just about the period you want - of a character in scale with splint defenses on his legs and upper arms.
Splints on lower arms were used earlier on (ie: the 8th or so century Rumanian Ewer) and seem to have become the rage later on (was it 14th cent Germany).
Therefore, I think not such a big stretch to use splints on the lower arms (but modeled on the early ones -- not on the 14th cent ones).
Elbow coups are, I think, more iffy.
A RUssian book shows 13th century anti-Russian Crusaders with simple disc elbows -- but I think even that's a bit of a stretch.

I'd say make the elbows very simple and as unobtrusive as possible.
Definitely no lames on them.

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Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Munz · Post by **Munz** » Wed Apr 18, 2001 12:19 pm

I am not an expert on the 12th cent., but as far as vambraces go, I don't think they were common for the time period. Look at 12th cent. art, statues and illuminations. Are they present? If they are then you're set, use what you see. If not, then go with a hidden peice of armour and maintain the outline of a crusder knight. Trust a primary source first. There are many online examples of 12 cent. illumination, and much of that deals with the holy wars of the time, so I think you should be able to find a few good paintings of knights/men at arms in armour.

Adriano · Post by **Adriano** » Wed Apr 18, 2001 6:10 pm

A couple of stupid questions:

1) Could you get the aluminum hauberk with long sleeves?

2) Conversely, I don't think it would look bad just to have the gambeson sleeves showing.

Either way would allow you to keep the lacrosse equipment. I don't think I've seen pictures of actual elbow coppes that early. (Funny how many knights went into battle without meeting SCA standards...)

Ld. Ondart de Clermont · Thu Apr 19, 2001 1:06 am

The arms I am thinking about would be all leather, including the cops. No metal on me except the hauberk and helm. I *could* get the hauberk with full sleeves but I would rather get rid of the lacrosse arms altogether. They are all right, just not my thing if you know what I mean.

Robert: Beth made my gambeson and I wear leather under it to help distribute the force of blows. Right now I just wear the gambeson and hockey shoulder pads under it with the obligatory leather belt covering the kidneys. (After last Tuesday I sure wish I had short rib protection, but that's a tale in and of itself!) What I need is an idea for the arms.

I hate to ask Beth to cut down the beautiful gambeson she made me. (It's darn near perfect for early 13th century Crusader types, believe me. Lots of research went into it. Though I do admit that it uses cotton instead of linen, had to cut costs somehow!)

Thanks everyone for your ideas, feel free to offer more!

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Ld. Ondart de Clermont
Squire to Ivar Rhidri Eithr Drenger
Haus Kriegsturm
Barony of Sternfeld
Middle Kingdom
House Kriegsturm Message Board

Ian Glenagary · Post by **Ian Glenagary** » Sat Apr 21, 2001 1:05 pm

I have had good success making splinted arms and bazubands of leather and using a varnish or laquer soak to harden them. I'm pretty sure the knights of the crusader states did use leather protection though I'm not positive about lower arms.

DanNV · Post by **DanNV** » Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:21 pm

My suggestion would be to use a long sleeved gambeson and out the arm harness under it. That should give you the right look and still keep you protected.

Dan

Harold the Bear · Post by **Harold the Bear** » Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:09 am

Gambeson long sleeved and Maille over it will look period because it is :^) OR just make Padded Vambraces with mail over it.

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"My Might Upholds the Weak"
Hochmeister of the Order of the Teutonic Knights

Herzog
Harold the Bear
von Sachsen

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:56 am

"Bascot: Heh heh, you were old when I first joined the SCA 10 years ago... Just kidding, of course!!! Don't hit me, please! (I sure hope you remember me as this will come across very poorly otherwise.)"

I know who you are...and I know where you live...

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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"

Gaston · Post by **Gaston** » Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:01 pm

Run! He's got REAL weapons, and he knows how to use them!