Any suggested size for the plates for a 15th Century Brigandine?
(Anyone have a source?)
Asbjorn
Plate size for 15th century Brigandine
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Asbjorn Johansen
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chef de chambre
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chef de chambre
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Hi Gethin,
The width varies depending on where it is in the brigandine, As an example, the back three rows tend to be tailored as to width narrowing toward the waist, and then expanding again into a peplum. The center collum narrows to a tiny triangle at the waist itself.
The other problem is of course there are no "standard" pattern brigandines - no two are truly alike, and many variations must have existed than the few relatively intact examples that have come down to us. I have seen brigandine plates that are escaloped like a fishes scale, I have seen square brigandine plates. The only thing I might be able to add is that they were all either tinned or protected by blacking, the "rivet"(actually nail) heads seem all to have been stamped with a design, and they were all secured to the foundation and cover with nails, not rivets. Nearly every fragment I have handled or seen up close has had the majority of nails clenched over - the same technique used in Medieval carpentry.
The vast majority of the nails are tinned iron, with one fragment having brass nails (note - this is very unusual - gilt iron nails were common on expensive examples, but not brass).
I wish I could give you a clearer answer, but none of the fragments I have examined or handled (spanning 1435 - 1480) were uniform in any fashion. A fragment of nine plates still attached to its foundation and cover had visible small variation in size (down the length of the collum). There is no 'average' - each garment was tailored to a specific individual, or to a standard variety of sizes. Each shop would have had it's own method of construction, the construction would vary with the quality of the product, and these defensive garments were made in hundreds of differing locals across Europe - by the thousand. The individuality of hand made defenses by different craftsmen must have been astonishing, especially to us in a modern industrialised age.
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Bob R.
The width varies depending on where it is in the brigandine, As an example, the back three rows tend to be tailored as to width narrowing toward the waist, and then expanding again into a peplum. The center collum narrows to a tiny triangle at the waist itself.
The other problem is of course there are no "standard" pattern brigandines - no two are truly alike, and many variations must have existed than the few relatively intact examples that have come down to us. I have seen brigandine plates that are escaloped like a fishes scale, I have seen square brigandine plates. The only thing I might be able to add is that they were all either tinned or protected by blacking, the "rivet"(actually nail) heads seem all to have been stamped with a design, and they were all secured to the foundation and cover with nails, not rivets. Nearly every fragment I have handled or seen up close has had the majority of nails clenched over - the same technique used in Medieval carpentry.
The vast majority of the nails are tinned iron, with one fragment having brass nails (note - this is very unusual - gilt iron nails were common on expensive examples, but not brass).
I wish I could give you a clearer answer, but none of the fragments I have examined or handled (spanning 1435 - 1480) were uniform in any fashion. A fragment of nine plates still attached to its foundation and cover had visible small variation in size (down the length of the collum). There is no 'average' - each garment was tailored to a specific individual, or to a standard variety of sizes. Each shop would have had it's own method of construction, the construction would vary with the quality of the product, and these defensive garments were made in hundreds of differing locals across Europe - by the thousand. The individuality of hand made defenses by different craftsmen must have been astonishing, especially to us in a modern industrialised age.
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Bob R.
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Gethin
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Chef,
Thank you for the information. I figured that it would be a question of "tailoring", but I hoped that there might be some kind of uniformity.
By the way, I am jealous! Getting to handle handle artifacts would be a high point in my life.
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All the best,
Rhys
"Art calls for complete mastery of techniques, developed by reflection within the soul"
Sifu Jun Fan Lee
Thank you for the information. I figured that it would be a question of "tailoring", but I hoped that there might be some kind of uniformity.
By the way, I am jealous! Getting to handle handle artifacts would be a high point in my life.
------------------
All the best,
Rhys
"Art calls for complete mastery of techniques, developed by reflection within the soul"
Sifu Jun Fan Lee
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chef de chambre
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Hi Gethin,
The best place to find how to information is Michal Lacy's thesis/SCA Complete Anachronist article on "The Evolution of the Coat of plates". He includes a good 15th c. pattern that can be used.
I just happend to be researching the subject, and there are some advantages to doing volunteer work at museums.
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Bob R.
The best place to find how to information is Michal Lacy's thesis/SCA Complete Anachronist article on "The Evolution of the Coat of plates". He includes a good 15th c. pattern that can be used.
I just happend to be researching the subject, and there are some advantages to doing volunteer work at museums.
------------------
Bob R.
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Joe The Armor Weenie
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Asbjorn Johansen
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Hey folks thanks for the help.
Chef,
Lots of questions, for the handler of the sacred real, period armour
.
Whats the difference between an arming nail and a rivit? Is it the head shape? Do you know of an modern substitute that you would find acceptable? Was there a washer used or just the head? Were the pieces you handled cloth backed or leather?
Joe,
Back issues of the Complete Anachronist are avialabel at www.sca.org. A list of the back issues is under the Complet Anachronist section. They can be ordered using forms found in the member services section.
Asbjorn
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Given a willing opponent, I'd fight with full body targeting and grappling until a given number of blows were recieved or someone relents.
Chef,
Lots of questions, for the handler of the sacred real, period armour
.Whats the difference between an arming nail and a rivit? Is it the head shape? Do you know of an modern substitute that you would find acceptable? Was there a washer used or just the head? Were the pieces you handled cloth backed or leather?
Joe,
Back issues of the Complete Anachronist are avialabel at www.sca.org. A list of the back issues is under the Complet Anachronist section. They can be ordered using forms found in the member services section.
Asbjorn
------------------
Given a willing opponent, I'd fight with full body targeting and grappling until a given number of blows were recieved or someone relents.
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Sinric
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Asbjorn Johansen:
I have pictures of some of the plates Chef is referring to. We were unable to take pictures of the brigandine fragments that still had some of their fabric covering. The museum doesn't allow flash photography of fabric artifacts due the fragile natural of the fabric. Also the digital camera that I used isn't great at taking pictures of small items closeup.
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/tmp/brig_plate_1.jpg
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/tmp/brig_plate_2.jpg
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/tmp/brig_plate_3.jpg
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/tmp/brig_plate_4.jpg
The differences between most of the period brigandine nails I've seen and modern round head rivets are:
1) The nails have a lower and wider head like a truss rivet.
2) The nails heads very offend have a pattern stamped on them.
3) The nails have a point on the end of the shaft (which is why their called nails) that lets you work the shaft through the fabric without breaking the fabrics.
None of the brigandine fragments that I've seen used washers on the nails.
All of the 15th century brigandines that I've seen (both in person and in books) have a cloth backing (canvas or twill). There are a few examples of brigandines with a cloth backing and a fairly thin layer (maybe 3oz.) of some kind of leather.
I'm currently working on either having custom brigandine nails made or buying truss headed nails form a company in the U.K. that sells specialty nails. The nails from the U.K. company are a lot cheaper (because they stock them) but I would have to stamp the design I want on the heads on each one by hand. Their URL is http://www.johnreynolds.co.uk/ .
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Craig Nadler
cwn@nh.ultranet.com
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/
[This message has been edited by Sinric (edited 04-25-2001).]
I have pictures of some of the plates Chef is referring to. We were unable to take pictures of the brigandine fragments that still had some of their fabric covering. The museum doesn't allow flash photography of fabric artifacts due the fragile natural of the fabric. Also the digital camera that I used isn't great at taking pictures of small items closeup.
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/tmp/brig_plate_1.jpg
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/tmp/brig_plate_2.jpg
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/tmp/brig_plate_3.jpg
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/tmp/brig_plate_4.jpg
The differences between most of the period brigandine nails I've seen and modern round head rivets are:
1) The nails have a lower and wider head like a truss rivet.
2) The nails heads very offend have a pattern stamped on them.
3) The nails have a point on the end of the shaft (which is why their called nails) that lets you work the shaft through the fabric without breaking the fabrics.
None of the brigandine fragments that I've seen used washers on the nails.
All of the 15th century brigandines that I've seen (both in person and in books) have a cloth backing (canvas or twill). There are a few examples of brigandines with a cloth backing and a fairly thin layer (maybe 3oz.) of some kind of leather.
I'm currently working on either having custom brigandine nails made or buying truss headed nails form a company in the U.K. that sells specialty nails. The nails from the U.K. company are a lot cheaper (because they stock them) but I would have to stamp the design I want on the heads on each one by hand. Their URL is http://www.johnreynolds.co.uk/ .
------------------
Craig Nadler
cwn@nh.ultranet.com
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/
[This message has been edited by Sinric (edited 04-25-2001).]
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Sinric
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Another interesting thing that I saw on the brigandine plates at the Higgins Armory Museum was the rather haphazard way that the rivets were set. The first picture listed in my earlier post shows a plate where the nails where just bent over to one side instead clipping off the excess and peening the shaft to a neat domed head.
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Craig Nadler
cwn@nh.ultranet.com
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/
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Craig Nadler
cwn@nh.ultranet.com
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/
The Royal Armouries have several of these brigandines and a few pictures are available. The only two I can find at the moment are in Osprey's Warrior series English Longbowmen on page 19. One is shown from the inside and a different though similar brig is shown from the inside. I've seen other pictures of these brig or similar ones but can't find them at the moment. It is displayed upside down in the top picture. Editing error?
The top brig buckles across the front (seems to be 5 buckles) and shoulders only one buckle each side. The buckles are on left and back with straps to right and front. The brig has two columns of plates in front. (one row on each side) There is a large plate across the chest and the rest are small horizontal plates. These plates are fairly long and have 12 nails in triangular patterns and 17? triangular sets of nails around the "breast" plates. Their is also a column of small plates along the front of the arm opening with horizontal rows of 3 or 4 single nails.
Each side has three columns of small plates. Some of the larger plates have as many as nine nails in triangular patterns but some of the small ones may have only two sets of two nails. They may just be missing, I can't tell from this picture. The front and back columns appear to overlap the center one and the same applies when the side meets the front and back of the brig.
The back has three columns with the outside columns overlapping the center. The back plates all appear to have three sets of triangular placed nails. The last few plates at the top of the back and front are small plates with nails set in single lines around the entire plate.
The direction of overlap also varies on different parts of the brigs. The inside back photo shows a V-shaped (in plane with the body pointing outward) at the waist. hese plates have a single row of nails across the center and the overlap reverses at this plate. Above this plate the plates overlap the one underneath and they go under the plate beneath it below the waist.
The nails on the brig do not run in straight lines but follow the curves of the body especially on the back. The nails down the back flare out from the top of the shoulder and get their widest at the shoulder blade. They then S-curve in to the waist and flair back out at the hips.
Other than the left/right mirror effect no two plates are identical. Plus the left and right would be curled in oposite curves.
Lord Theodore of Haddington.
[This message has been edited by Theodore (edited 04-24-2001).]
The top brig buckles across the front (seems to be 5 buckles) and shoulders only one buckle each side. The buckles are on left and back with straps to right and front. The brig has two columns of plates in front. (one row on each side) There is a large plate across the chest and the rest are small horizontal plates. These plates are fairly long and have 12 nails in triangular patterns and 17? triangular sets of nails around the "breast" plates. Their is also a column of small plates along the front of the arm opening with horizontal rows of 3 or 4 single nails.
Each side has three columns of small plates. Some of the larger plates have as many as nine nails in triangular patterns but some of the small ones may have only two sets of two nails. They may just be missing, I can't tell from this picture. The front and back columns appear to overlap the center one and the same applies when the side meets the front and back of the brig.
The back has three columns with the outside columns overlapping the center. The back plates all appear to have three sets of triangular placed nails. The last few plates at the top of the back and front are small plates with nails set in single lines around the entire plate.
The direction of overlap also varies on different parts of the brigs. The inside back photo shows a V-shaped (in plane with the body pointing outward) at the waist. hese plates have a single row of nails across the center and the overlap reverses at this plate. Above this plate the plates overlap the one underneath and they go under the plate beneath it below the waist.
The nails on the brig do not run in straight lines but follow the curves of the body especially on the back. The nails down the back flare out from the top of the shoulder and get their widest at the shoulder blade. They then S-curve in to the waist and flair back out at the hips.
Other than the left/right mirror effect no two plates are identical. Plus the left and right would be curled in oposite curves.
Lord Theodore of Haddington.
[This message has been edited by Theodore (edited 04-24-2001).]
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chef de chambre
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Hi Guys,
What Craig said. We (Wolfe Argent) are in process of making a series of brigandines to differing patterns as accurately as we can possibly re-create them - hence the Oddessy hunting for brigandine nails. We are seriously considering the idea of publishing a monograph covering a study of surviving fragments and actual complete specimens, and possibly a "how to" instructional as well.
Do not look for this anytime soon, it may take years if we decide to go ahead. If we do, I (we) will announce that we are doing it. Several years of study would be required to accumulate enough information for the project.
------------------
Bob R.
[This message has been edited by chef de chambre (edited 04-25-2001).]
What Craig said. We (Wolfe Argent) are in process of making a series of brigandines to differing patterns as accurately as we can possibly re-create them - hence the Oddessy hunting for brigandine nails. We are seriously considering the idea of publishing a monograph covering a study of surviving fragments and actual complete specimens, and possibly a "how to" instructional as well.
Do not look for this anytime soon, it may take years if we decide to go ahead. If we do, I (we) will announce that we are doing it. Several years of study would be required to accumulate enough information for the project.
------------------
Bob R.
[This message has been edited by chef de chambre (edited 04-25-2001).]
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Asbjorn Johansen
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Thank again for the information guys, you've been real helpful, and therefore you get even more questions .
From what folks are discribing arming nails sound like roofing nails in shape, but I don't think the typical galvanized roofing nail would be a good choice for this project.
How does tinning change the look of iron? I don't think this is done on any nails today, but is there a modern product that looks like its been tinned?
Anyone have a source for brass roofing nails, or a brass nail with a large head like a roofing nail?
I'd like to make a front opening brigandine out of canvas, with painted mild steel for plates (any guage suggestions? I'm going to be using a jigsaw to cut them out if that matters). I'm thinking that the best way to decide on what size to make the plates would be to cut the fabric out, and lay out cardboard pieces as a pattern. Any sugestions for a pattern for the canvas? My big concern is how to do the plates around the neck and shoulders, any suggestions or tips?
Sinric,
Which nails at johnreynolds were you considering? I looked on the site for "truss headed nails" and couldn't find a match. Any suggested material coating or length?
Thanks again for your help,
Asbjorn
.From what folks are discribing arming nails sound like roofing nails in shape, but I don't think the typical galvanized roofing nail would be a good choice for this project.
How does tinning change the look of iron? I don't think this is done on any nails today, but is there a modern product that looks like its been tinned?
Anyone have a source for brass roofing nails, or a brass nail with a large head like a roofing nail?
I'd like to make a front opening brigandine out of canvas, with painted mild steel for plates (any guage suggestions? I'm going to be using a jigsaw to cut them out if that matters). I'm thinking that the best way to decide on what size to make the plates would be to cut the fabric out, and lay out cardboard pieces as a pattern. Any sugestions for a pattern for the canvas? My big concern is how to do the plates around the neck and shoulders, any suggestions or tips?
Sinric,
Which nails at johnreynolds were you considering? I looked on the site for "truss headed nails" and couldn't find a match. Any suggested material coating or length?
Thanks again for your help,
Asbjorn
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Sinric
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Asbjorn Johansen:
I used the term truss head to describe a low dome head. I'm not sure what term they use for that type of nail. What I'd recommend are nails with a 2mm (0.08") thick shaft that's 1/2" (12.7mm) long and has about a 6mm (0.24") wide low dome head. A salesperson at Johnreynolds said that she will send me samples of steel and brass nails that fit this description.
In the 15th century most iron brigandine nails were hot dipped in tin. Hot dipped tinned steel looks kind of like a dull nickel plating. My plan is to tin the steel nails myself. Some plating shops offer tin electroplating. For the first brigandine I'm making (currently in progress) I'm using bronze boat/ring nails from http://www.rjleahy.com/ . Please note that I haven't seen any 15th century examples of brigandines with bronze nails. The first brigandine is a prototype that I'm using to work out the issues with the pattern, heat treating, and tinning.
If your willing to wait a month or so I will be ordering nails for the brigandines that the members of Wolfe Argent plan to build. I plan on ordering both steel (uncoated) and brass nails if the nails samples from Johnreynolds look good.
------------------
Craig Nadler
cwn@nh.ultranet.com
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/
I used the term truss head to describe a low dome head. I'm not sure what term they use for that type of nail. What I'd recommend are nails with a 2mm (0.08") thick shaft that's 1/2" (12.7mm) long and has about a 6mm (0.24") wide low dome head. A salesperson at Johnreynolds said that she will send me samples of steel and brass nails that fit this description.
In the 15th century most iron brigandine nails were hot dipped in tin. Hot dipped tinned steel looks kind of like a dull nickel plating. My plan is to tin the steel nails myself. Some plating shops offer tin electroplating. For the first brigandine I'm making (currently in progress) I'm using bronze boat/ring nails from http://www.rjleahy.com/ . Please note that I haven't seen any 15th century examples of brigandines with bronze nails. The first brigandine is a prototype that I'm using to work out the issues with the pattern, heat treating, and tinning.
If your willing to wait a month or so I will be ordering nails for the brigandines that the members of Wolfe Argent plan to build. I plan on ordering both steel (uncoated) and brass nails if the nails samples from Johnreynolds look good.
------------------
Craig Nadler
cwn@nh.ultranet.com
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/