poll weapons of the 12c

David deKunstenaar · Post by **David deKunstenaar** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 6:58 pm

Was there anything like a galve with an 'ax' head on one side, a spear tip, and an edge on the back used in the end of the 13thc, begining of the 14th? For the life of me I can find nothing about any poll arms, save poll axes during this period.

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Arti

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 9:26 pm

There's been some pretty wierd polearms used over the centuries. I've amassed quite a collection of contemporary illustrations, dating back to the mid 12th century. I'll have a look through and see what I can find.

Not quite sure about the "blade at the back" bit, though. Do you mean something like a halberd (ie long axe with spear tip), but also with the spear tip having a cutting edge on the opposite side to the axe-head, or what? More information, please.

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Egfroth

"I can't help it. I was BORN sneering" - Pooh Bah
see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

David deKunstenaar · Post by **David deKunstenaar** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 10:27 pm

Well yes, but the halberd is a little late. But the same kind of idea.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 1:18 am

I'm looking in Norman Vesey's "A&A: Pleasures and Treasures" (p24)and it shows a couple pages from te Maciejowski Bible (1250) and it shows a couple pole axes, a glaive like pole weapon, and one odd thing.

Not sure what you'd call it and hard to describe. Held vertically, one edge is straight until it gets to the end, where it curves out to a point. There is not a centrally mounted point, instead it is a very shallow crescent from point to point on the end. From the second point on the end, it makes a crescent to a point on the side, another smaller crescent to a point below that, and it then drops down to finish a straight edge. Best description I can give. Clear as mud.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:13 pm

Aha! What is colloquially known as "Horror weapon No. 2" (No. 1 is that nasty big glaive). You can see No. 2 at http://www1.tip.nl/~t401243/mac/mac03rB.jpg being held by the guy in the kettle hat, second from the right, and again at http://www1.tip.nl/~t401243/mac/mac03vA.jpg
- the guy in front of the left hand tent is wielding one, and there's another one upright below the apex of the right hand tent.

I've looked through my sources, and have found the following:

From a "Kiss of Judas", Uffizi gallery, Florence, second half of the C12, Frankish - a pole weapon with a Y-shaped metal head, with teeth on the inside of the Y; A spiked ball on the end of a pole, a thing like a sickle on the end of a pole, but with teeth on the inside of the curve, a thing like a billhook, with a single edged wavy blade, and a short spiky bit sticking out of the straight side.

From another "Last Supper and Arrest of Christ" series of paintings,illis, Grisons, mid C12 - another billhook on a pole, and a big knobby club thing (a mutant mace, perhaps?)

From "Coutumes de Toulouse" (looks to be about 1200) - more billhooks on medium length handles. Look very like the old "falx" from Roman times.

From the "Vie d'Edouard" about 1250, English - military tridents and forks on long poles.

This is all in addition to the usual axes, spears etc.

But sorry, no halberd.

On the other hand, I do have a hand-drawn copy of a 14th century fresco in the Church of St Peter & St Paul, Great Tarnavo, showing a Bulgarian Tsar enthroned & accompanied by his warriors, five of whom have weapons which seem to be VERY like a halberd - long pole, spear point, and axe-head below it. Their outfits are pretty cool, too.

Does this help?

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Egfroth

"I can't help it. I was BORN sneering" - Pooh Bah
see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:15 pm

Sorry, the guy in front of the tent SECOND from the left.

David deKunstenaar · Post by **David deKunstenaar** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 12:28 am

Even if what I am trying to find did not exist, then you have been a great help. Simply, there is no known record of this weapon existing, or being used, in the late 13thc. I had only seen about half of those examples before, so this is helpful. The large ax seems to have been quite popular. Also spears.
Thank you very much for your time.

Arti

Brodir · Post by **Brodir** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 1:45 am

Museum Replicas/Atlanta Cutlery made a cool looking replica of 'Horror Weapon Number 2' about four years ago, I wonder if there are any still floating around.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 2:46 am

Very cool indeed! Mine didn't have a full view.

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 5:51 pm

[QUOTE]'Horror Weapon Number 2' [QUOTE]

And here I thought it was a "Super Machete of Doom"..

:-)

Juliana

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Mon Feb 11, 2002 5:24 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Egfroth:
[B]Aha! What is colloquially known as "Horror weapon No. 2" (No. 1 is that nasty big glaive/- the guy in front of the left hand tent is wielding one, and there's another one upright below the apex of the right hand tent.
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We made an SCA version of that thing a few years back, it was a lot of fun to use, and an absolute horror to face. It worked very well for the guys who were willing to fully commit to an attack (I know I know men never commit)

Buran · Post by **Buran** » Mon Feb 11, 2002 7:13 pm

I have discovered that in Anglo-Saxon England a tool, the billhook, was used to prune trees, this may have been the ancestor of the glaive. Something similar appears to have been used for slaughtering animals.

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Baldurstrand

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Mon Feb 11, 2002 8:50 pm

Mordreth, how did you construct it? It is essentially a mass weapon, and I would like to make perform like one, but not be so heavy as to be unsafe. It looks like a glaive with a 15-18" handle to me.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 9:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Buran:
I have discovered that in Anglo-Saxon England a tool, the billhook, was used to prune trees, this may have been the ancestor of the glaive. Something similar appears to have been used for slaughtering animals.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I mentioned above, we can definitely trace billhooks as weapons back at least to the C12.

One of my mates made a Horror Weapon No. 2 in steel (mild steel, I think, judging by the way it bent). The edges were 3mm (1/8") min and the points were all rounded off to about 3/4" diameter; it worked very well as a two-handed weapon, both in attack and defense, and you'd have to see to believe what it could do to a shield!

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Egfroth

"I can't help it. I was BORN sneering" - Pooh Bah
see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 1:37 am

And the arm behind it, if real.

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 1:29 pm

I could give the horror weapon a shot with the same material that I make pole arm heads out of. Please draw up what you would like and I will price it.
Huscarl- I am still working out your Dane axe. You should have something from me by the end of next week.

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain

naynix · Post by **naynix** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 11:45 am

I think the big nasty pole-cleaver thing is an early falchion, these were used to slaughter large animals, cows and pigs and such. To tell the truth I would hate to be on the business side of one, I think a shield would be useless, and any Armour too