14 or 13?

[Murdock]

OK a 14th C question.

I'm converting from my 15th C plate to a lighter 14th C transitional rig for various reasons.

I think i've read that the Chruburg 13 is from about 1390ish, when did more simple globose body armours like the Churburg 14 start to appear?

[white mountain armoury]

Ch 13 is 1370, img 5 in mantova book has a single piece globose with "v" shaped stop rib and mouting lugs for a lance rest, dated 1390/1400, no fauld, i wish i read italian so i could give you better info, from my limited knowlage it seems that the articulated fauld begins to apearjust after or about 1400, with Ch 13 dating at 1370 you could possibly have a 30 year window for a 1 piece globose with no fauld.

[SyrRhys]

One of the real problems that comes in studying transitional armor is that there are so few extant pieces we're forced to rely on the iconography. Unfortunately, most of the time the iconography of this period shows a covering worn over the body armor, so it's almost impossible to answer your question.

I was having a discussion with someone the other day about the harness depicted in the Black Prince's effigy; one possibility is that he's wearing nothing under his jupon other than a breastplate a la Churburg #14. The reason this theory was introduced is that the portion of the effigy that would normally be expected to be covered by a fauld or the skirt of a globose-breasted coat of plates (such as the velvet-covered one at the Met) is too close-fitting to the body to reflect any defense other than the skirt of his haubergeon. Conversely, the roundness of his back suggests either a closed breast and back (and this effigy seems to early for that) or else a true globose-breasted coat of plates.

Regardless, you can certainly date this concept as early as 1386 since that's the date of the effigy of Walter von Hohenklingen, who is shown with just such a breastplate worn over his lentner.

I tend to believe that these sorts of breatsplates were commonly worn under lentner's or jupons from the early 1370s, but they are *certainly* acceptable from the 1380's on.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

[Erik Schmidt]

Faulds riveted to the inside of a covering were already commonly seen on German effigies from around 1370. Covered, single piece, breastplates were also common, but it is not until 1377 that it can be shown to be of iron, and not cuir bouilli, on the effigy of Beringer von Berlichingen (Schonthal an der Jagst, Würtemberg).

Erik

[Munz]

What is the accepted date for the velvet covered breastplate with fauld that is in the Bavarian National Museum in Munich? I believe that a picture of it is in the AAOMK. I had thought it was around 1370 or so. It is articulated on leather and canvas, not on rivets, but would fit the bill.

[white mountain armoury]

Cool info i guess my assumptions were wrong

[Erik Schmidt]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Munz:
What is the accepted date for the velvet covered breastplate with fauld that is in the Bavarian National Museum in Munich? I believe that a picture of it is in the AAOMK. I had thought it was around 1370 or so. It is articulated on leather and canvas, not on rivets, but would fit the bill.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have four references for that breastplate, giving a date of 1400, 1400, late 14th and 14th/15th century. So 1370 is too early a date for it.
The Churburg segmented breastplate was recently redated from late 14th c. to about 1365, so you may be thinking of it.

I just checked the Pistoia Cathedral(Italy) silver alter piece (also in AAotMK) and you see two examples with a fauld very similar to it. You mostly see the back on one of them and I don't know if you can say positively that it is metal and not leather. This one has no back plate and is held on by straps crossing over on the back and one around the waist.
The second one has a rounded ridge down the front(so most likely metal) nad has a fauld with 5 full lames and another 7 or so coming to a point. I can't tell if this one has a back plate or lames all the way around. This one seems to be fully external, no covering material.
On both, the lames in the faulds overlap eachother downwards, so in the opposite direction to the velvet covered example.
I had forgotten that the date for this is 1376. So there you go...a single piece breastplate with faulds from 1376.

Erik