Linen Breeches?

Hushgirl · Post by **Hushgirl** » Wed Apr 24, 2002 1:22 pm

Why not?

Tim Finkas · Post by **Tim Finkas** » Wed Apr 24, 2002 1:37 pm

Well, there's been a lengthy discussion as to whether they're appropriate for medieval women. Anyone remember the thread "Joan of Arc wore underpants" ...or whatever it was called?

I found some evidence to indicate that wearing trousers amonst Western women was inspired by Moorish women. Of course, there was a LOT more to the discussion which got silly and crude at times, yet was overall very interesting & informative.

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Tim Finkas<A HREF="http://finkas.home.netcom.com/Forgerie/Index.html" TARGET=_blank>
The Historical Forgerie</A>
Coming Soon: Getting a clue, Getting a real life, Getting priorities in order, Getting a job(?)

[This message has been edited by Tim Finkas (edited 04-24-2002).]

Hushgirl · Post by **Hushgirl** » Wed Apr 24, 2002 2:04 pm

Yup, that was mine. But this time, what I want to know is why wool is more appropriate for breeches with puffy-slash than linen, as was suggested in another thread.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Wed Apr 24, 2002 2:25 pm

Wool is better for puff-n-slash becuase it won't fray. Some groups use linen as the inside material but a light wool for the outside that gets slashed.

Flonzy

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.

Tim Finkas · Post by **Tim Finkas** » Wed Apr 24, 2002 2:41 pm

Exactly, Flonzy. Linen tend to fray like crazy, where "boiled" wool does not. I have seen Landsknecht clothing done in linen with the frayed edges used to create a wonderful artistic effect---but it looked MUCH more fantasy than historically authentic. I didn't help that it was done in "Easter Egg" pastels.

Use a melton type wool in as close to 100% wool as you can find.

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Tim Finkas<A HREF="http://finkas.home.netcom.com/Forgerie/Index.html" TARGET=_blank>
The Historical Forgerie</A>
Coming Soon: Getting a clue, Getting a real life, Getting priorities in order, Getting a job(?)

Hushgirl · Post by **Hushgirl** » Wed Apr 24, 2002 2:54 pm

Properly finishing the edges would stop that. And fullered, felted or boiled wool is heavy. Good for winter, but...

Is linen in breeches period? If not, why?

I come from the practical school of historical theory. The ancestors weren't stupid, and even the funniest-looking things were done with a reason. The chopine, that distant ancestor of the both the stiletto heel and the stilt of carnival fame, began life as a way to keep your clothes out of the mud. So why would breeches be made out of one fiber and not another? Was it too much work to finish the edges? Did it not wear well?

[This message has been edited by Hushgirl (edited 04-24-2002).]

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Wed Apr 24, 2002 3:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hushgirl:
Properly finishing the edges would stop that. And fullered, felted or boiled wool is heavy. Good for winter, but...

Is linen in breeches period? If not, why?
[This message has been edited by Hushgirl (edited 04-24-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because linen hangs very differently from wool or leather. There is LOTS of documentation for the early 16th c German era. Paintings are realistic enough to tell what fabrics are used. Linings/puffings were linen or silk, but outer garments tended to be wool or leather, or fairly heavy brocades. Felted wool comes in a variety of weights.

BTW, we have lots inventory records from this period for a variety of classes of society, unlike some of the earlier periods.

Juliana

[This message has been edited by FrauHirsch (edited 04-24-2002).]

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Wed Apr 24, 2002 3:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hushgirl:

I come from the practical school of historical theory. The ancestors weren't stupid, and even the funniest-looking things were done with a reason. The chopine, that distant ancestor of the both the stiletto heel and the stilt of carnival fame, began life as a way to keep your clothes out of the mud. So why would breeches be made out of one fiber and not another? Was it too much work to finish the edges? Did it not wear well?

[This message has been edited by Hushgirl (edited 04-24-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It didn't wear as well. For a solder, linen would tear easily, stain easier and not deal well with wet/dry as well as wool.

If you look to even the early part of the 20th c, you will find pictures of guys in full suits digging ditches in the Southern US heat. My theory is that people just wore more clothing that we do now and did for hundreds of years.

Wool has more ventalation than one normally expects, especially if slashed a lot so that the sweat can wick out through the linen shirt.

Wool and leather do not require cleaning much. Both are actually very easy maintenance fabics from the perspective of people only wanting to wash underwear. Gunk just chips or brushes off wool and it mostly airs to remove stinkies. The darker colors don't stain easily and it doesn't fade. Depending on how its tanned, most leather can take getting wet.

One issue is brightness and colorfastness. I've been told by many dye/fiber people that linen doesn't take period dyes easily and then fades quickly. Silk, wool and leather retain the dye and hold fast (and Landsknechts were VERY fashion conscious.)

It is also is a LOT of work to finish the edges of all the panes and would take twice the fabric to make a linen slashed item of the weight to make the panes hang right. With wool or leather, its a cut through one layer.

So there are reasons why landsknechts (and other soldiers of that period) would probably avoid linen outergarments.

Juliana

Hushgirl · Post by **Hushgirl** » Wed Apr 24, 2002 5:46 pm

That's what I like. Practical logic.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:29 pm

Not that long ago I saw some documentation on a surviving piece of slashed and puffed (woollen)clothing which said that the edges were kept from fraying with wax melted into the edges.

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Egfroth

"Power; it corrupts! I can FEEL it!!
see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

David deKunstenaar · Post by **David deKunstenaar** » Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:58 am

Catherine Rose from your group use to wear bloomers under all those nice Italian Rens. It prevented chaiffing.

Arti

Hushgirl · Post by **Hushgirl** » Thu Apr 25, 2002 7:33 am

Most of us do, if not bloomers then track shorts or something. In this climate it's necessary. Even with layers of petticoats, winter gets unpleasant and summer is difficult. Which is why I tended to think more than a few women in period wore something as well, it's just that what we wore was--well, unmentionable.

Gobae · Post by **Gobae** » Thu Apr 25, 2002 8:26 am

Pardon my ignorance, just a quick question. What is slashing (as referred to in this context)?

Is the fabric actually slashed causing one side to fauze and become fuzzy? Or is it cut straight through? Or is it a style as seen in some "poofy" sleeves where the fabric can expand open kinda like a pleat?

Thanks,

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Swordsmith
Oak & Acorn Ancient Metalcrafts
http://www.oakandacorn.com

Hushgirl · Post by **Hushgirl** » Thu Apr 25, 2002 8:40 am

It's cut through and sealed or finished to allow the underclothes to show through. Remember the japanese paper lanterns you made in first-grade art class?

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Thu Apr 25, 2002 8:52 am

Swordsmith

Slashing is a style were you have a 2-layered garment and you literally slash the outer layer.

This was big during the 15th and 16th centuries. The Landsknechts used this to the extreme.

I would like to add two more comment to the conversation.

1) Leather pants were not used by the Landsknechts from the research I have done. Leather is not and easy to clean material so troops did not use it much. Wool was the preferred material. I have seen Landsknecht groups use leather pants, but itâ€™s not authentic.

2) Most of Europe does not get as hot and humid as we do during the summer, so light wool would not be a totally unacceptable material for summer in the Middle Ages.

Flonzy

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Thu Apr 25, 2002 10:10 am

one problem:

The middle ages were a warmer time than now. Or at least so they say. That is one of the reasons given for the decline of the greenland colonies.

to be honest, i think that wool isn not terribly uncomfortable as a fabric for summer, provided it is in an appropriate thickeness.

Also, medieval (and rennaisance) people often did not wash thier clothing as much, or as rigorously as we do ours, so frraying would be less of a problem.

-+G

Tim Finkas · Post by **Tim Finkas** » Thu Apr 25, 2002 10:36 am

I say suck it up and wear the wool, or go for a personna that wears something lighter (Easter Island folks come to mind---anyone seen the film Rappa Nui?).

There is just NO FREAKING NEED to finish the edges of slashed melton wool! Don't make yourself crazy, cause it just ain't necessary!

Frau Hirsch knows her stuff, she has mad alot of gorgeous Landsknecht clothing. I've made a few things too

.

As fas as leather goes, there is DEFINITELY evidence for its use in cut & slash clothing. There are EXTANT garments for Pete's sake! I'll grant you that there are folks doing Landsknecht costumes that get a little carried away with the use of leather (I call them Landsknecht bikers).

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Tim Finkas<A HREF="http://finkas.home.netcom.com/Forgerie/Index.html" TARGET=_blank>
The Historical Forgerie</A>
Coming Soon: Getting a clue, Getting a real life, Getting priorities in order, Getting a job(?)

[This message has been edited by Tim Finkas (edited 04-25-2002).]

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:25 am

Sorry Tim I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean that Landsknechts never wore leather, I meant they didn't wear leather pants. They used leather jerkins all the time. German nobles also wore leather slashed doublets.

Sorry for the confusion.

Flonzy

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.

twoswords · Post by **twoswords** » Thu Apr 25, 2002 12:27 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Egfroth:
Not that long ago I saw some documentation on a surviving piece of slashed and puffed (woollen)clothing which said that the edges were kept from fraying with wax melted into the edges.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you remember where you found that documentation??

twoswords · Post by **twoswords** » Thu Apr 25, 2002 12:33 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tim Finkas:

Frau Hirsch knows her stuff, she has mad alot of gorgeous Landsknecht clothing. I've made a few things too

.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Frau Hirsh, Tim Finkas, do you have any example of your garb?

I only have one photo from my yet unfinished stuff, which can be wieved here: http://se.photos.yahoo.com/bc/trotsen/vwp?.dir=/Coronation+Mynydd+Gwyn+-02&.src=ph&.dnm=Marcus+Lawless+O%27Toole.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//se.photos.yahoo.com/bc/trotsen/lst%3f%26 .dir=/Coronation%2bMynydd%2bGwyn%2b-02%26.src=ph%26.view=t

ItÂ´s not the best pic, but...

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Thu Apr 25, 2002 1:52 pm

uhh...

as a tip, try something like this <a href="www.server.com/user/fine/"> link </a>

that way it wont clip the link that way

-+G

[This message has been edited by Rev. George (edited 04-25-2002).]

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Thu Apr 25, 2002 1:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by flonzy:
1) Leather pants were not used by the Landsknechts from the research I have done. Leather is not and easy to clean material so troops did not use it much. Wool was the preferred material. I have seen Landsknecht groups use leather pants, but itâ€™s not authentic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flonzy, perhaps you might consider subscribing to the GermanRenCostume list. In the archives there are posts which have references to leather clothing (including pants.)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GermanRenCostume/

Leather is easy to clean and holds up to harsh conditions. That is why shoes are made of leather. Leather was used for outer garments for soldiers by various units through the 20th century.

Cowboys still use leather as the outer leg covering to this day. Mountain men used leather for harsh conditions. Using the same techniques, water, saddle soap, and oil, one can maintain almost new looking leather clothing.

- Juliana

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by twoswords:
Frau Hirsh, Tim Finkas, do you have any example of your garb?ItÂ´s not the best pic, but...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very nice! You can see some ancient pictures at http://www.znet.com/~savaskan/germans under the picture section, or you can subscribe to the GermanRenCostume list (link mentioned above) and go to the files section where there are pictures of myself and some friends in their German's.

I have some old pictures of Tim in Germans somewhere. His are very nice. Tim is an EXCELLENT costumer in general. I agree with Tim that the leathers are overdone, but leather pants ARE period. The guys who fight a lot find that the wool rips out faster when snagged by blades during sparring.

Leather pants referenced in tailors inventories, letters from the period as well as seen in paintings of the period (and its very clear when you see the paintings in person the difference in textures between wool and leather, silk, brockade, cut velvet, velvet, etc.) This is not as obvious from photos of paintings shown in books. Besides the originals can be 6'x6' and in a book you are lucky to get 6" x 6".

-J

twoswords · Post by **twoswords** » Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:19 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rev. George:
uhh...

as a tip, try something like this link

that way it wont clip the link that way

-+G

[This message has been edited by Rev. George (edited 04-25-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm...yep, you are right, just a bit tired at work.

I promise IÂ´ll do better next time.. ;-)

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Thu Apr 25, 2002 8:03 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rev. George:
The middle ages were a warmer time than now. Or at least so they say. That is one of the reasons given for the decline of the greenland colonies.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Rev, the Greenland colonies largely died out due to the "little ice age" in the late 14th and 15th centuries. There is some evidence of a slightly warmer than average period of time *before* this, though.

The main reason the colonies in Greenland died out were two-fold: They couldn't even grow hay in the worsening climate, and icebergs began encroaching into the lanes of commerce, effectively cutting them off. The last documented ship to or from Greenland was in 1410, and the island wasn't revisited by Europeans until the 17th century.

-Donasian.

(edit for date inaccuracy)

[This message has been edited by Donasian (edited 04-25-2002).]

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 9:05 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by FrauHirsch:
 Flonzy, perhaps you might consider subscribing to the GermanRenCostume list. In the archives there are posts which have references to leather clothing (including pants.)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GermanRenCostume/

Leather is easy to clean and holds up to harsh conditions. That is why shoes are made of leather. Leather was used for outer garments for soldiers by various units through the 20th century.

Cowboys still use leather as the outer leg covering to this day. Mountain men used leather for harsh conditions. Using the same techniques, water, saddle soap, and oil, one can maintain almost new looking leather clothing.

- Juliana

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Juliana

I am part of several Landsknecht groups, but I have signed up for this one also. http://www.st-max.org/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000009.html here is a great argument about the Landsknechts wearing leather pants. The conclusions are the same as I have found. While there is lots of evidence of nobles, and even peasants using leather hose and pants there is nothing to prove Landsknecht troops wore them. All examples on Landsknecht clothing out there I have seen or heard about are wool or a tight weave of a canvas like material. No leather. If you have some proof of Landsknechts using leather for hosen please share it with me.

Thanks

Flonzy

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 10:05 am

I am curious about this leather pants theme going on here. Not taking sides but I have not seen a single wood cut, or period painting where anyone was wearing leather pants, in any form. The further back one goes in history the more difficult it is to find credible sources for clothing and such.
So is there any real evidence that soldiers wore leather pants?

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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 12:19 pm

Excuse me. I hate to be the (relatively) ignorant person butting in here, but did either of you actualy READ Juliana's posts?
"There are EXTANT garments for Pete's sake!" Tim Finkas
"Leather pants referenced in tailors inventories, letters from the period as well as seen in paintings of the period" Juliana

Mind explaining why people of every class used leather, EXCEPT landsknechts? Mind explaining why they wore leather shirts, coats, & vests, but not pants? It just doesn't make sense.

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 12:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Winterfell:
I am curious about this leather pants theme going on here. Not taking sides but I have not seen a single wood cut, or period painting where anyone was wearing leather pants, in any form. The further back one goes in history the more difficult it is to find credible sources for clothing and such.
So is there any real evidence that soldiers wore leather pants?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by flonzy:
 Juliana

I am part of several Landsknecht groups, but I have signed up for this one also. http://www.st-max.org/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000009.html here is a great argument about the Landsknechts wearing leather pants. The conclusions are the same as I have found. While there is lots of evidence of nobles, and even peasants using leather hose and pants there is nothing to prove Landsknecht troops wore them. All examples on Landsknecht clothing out there I have seen or heard about are wool or a tight weave of a canvas like material. No leather. If you have some proof of Landsknechts using leather for hosen please share it with me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm answering both of you at once:

Landsknecht soldiers were middle and lower class people who did not wear a "special uniform", but typically modified existing clothing to a more elaborate style by slashing. The same puffing and slashing styles are often seen on various craftsmen and middle class and noble people of the same era. The discussion of a recession causing peasants and craftsmen to take up soldiering is discussed in Peasants, Warriors and Wives, by Keith Moxey and "Artists and Warfare in the Renaissance" by J. R. Hale.

There are period inventories, account books and letters which reference leather pants and underhosen. There are various references to leather pants and hose from the late 15th c through the 16th c for leather clothing as common for all classes in Germany. Of course in a woodcut, the material is not identifiable, except for occasional brocades and velvets, however looking closely at museum paintings, a costume historian can identify the differences between leather and wool, especially if they are in the same painting. See "Textilier Hausrat, Kleidung und Haustextilien in Nurnberg von 1500-1650"
Jutta Zander-Seidel, Deutcher Kunstverlag, 1990 has inventory references to leather pants and hosen. "Three Behaim Boys" by Steven Ozment has a translation of a letter from a boy to his parents(a middle class family apprenticing to a merchant) asking for money for new leather pants.

Several people, including Dale Shinn, a long time re-enactor and museum level gunsmith who does work for museums in Europe, have written German museums and the response from PhD curators has been that yes they wore leather clothing, including pants. There is even an extant heavily slashed leather sleeve in typical Landsnecht style. The link to this picture is somewhere in the archives of the GermanRenCostume list.

Flonzy, yes, I've read that bbs. I can only say that from the letters I've received privately from members of St. Max that the "leather vs wool" argument is a political issue within St. Max. If you reread the bbs carefully, people keep iterating personal opinions as to why soldiers would have worn wool, not providing historic sources for woolen-only wearing soldiers. Some reference to later period soldiers wearing wool, which is not applicable, especially after the growth of the fabric industry, where wool would have been much cheaper than leather. On the RMS list (which is not an open list) this same argument was used, and was contradicted by Dale Shinn, who listed many various regiments who used leather in their uniform from the 17th through the 20th c. Even the vague reference to a "historical researcher" is not documented as to who it is, so no one can double check the context of the statement. While some disparage Kohler, one important thing to remember is that he was German and had access to museums prior to both world wars, thus able to have access to items that may have been destroyed in those wars. The other important thing is the Dover book is just translation and condensation of a 4 volume set that is much longer. A friend of mine has had access to that in the Berkeley special collection and said that there is a lot missing from the Dover book.

The only reference to soldiers wearing wool that I know is from a song where it mentions "Loden", but the use of Loden is a sarcastic reference to how more peasants were joining the armies and bringing with them "peasant" tastes. It certainly doesn't prove that wool was commonly worn by soldiers.

I haven't seen any more documentation that "soldiers" wore wool than leather. Though I believe that wool was more common than leather, I don't have any primary sources to prove that. Perhaps you could post your specific references to "soldiers" wearing wool? The only reference I've seen is the mention the canvas is that "Eliot and Cat" saw some in Germany. Unfortunately there is no museum reference or reference as to whether what they saw was specifically "soldiers" pants. I know Eliot and he is about as far from a costume historian as one can get. Not to disparage him personally, but while he is a nice guy, he is a better fighter than costumer. It is hard for me to know for sure if it was an extant item he saw or something from a diarama made for armor display purposes.

- Juliana

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 1:47 pm

Juliana

I thank you for a great reply. That was the kind of answer I wanted.

Destichado

If you read MY post I asked for proof outside of painting of nobles. Woodcuts of soldiers can't tell you if its wool or leather. Why would Landsknechts do it different? They were a military group, I am sure they had standards and maybe leather pants would be out. Lets face it leather pants are not good for hot or cold weather.

Flonzy

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 4:26 pm

Leather pants are protection. Most people that wear them (even today) aside from "emulating fashion trends" to protect them form some form of the elements. Bikers wear it to help prevent road rash and hitting bugs/pebbles. Cowbows wear them to help with bramble, etc.

I could see someone on campaign wearing leder hosen (if only in the strict translation) to protect from briars, and the dreaded shrubbery.

Pure conjecture.

-+G

Hushgirl · Post by **Hushgirl** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 6:43 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rev. George:
) ...to protect from briars, and the dreaded shrubbery.
-+G<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dreaded but not too expensive, with one a little higher than the other, so as to give the two tiered effect, and a path running between them.....

Hush (under the influence of anniversary gifts)

Tim Finkas · Post by **Tim Finkas** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 9:19 pm

Here's some brief on-topic info from
Hispanic Costume 1480-1530 by Ruth Matilda Anderson
Â© 1979 by the Hispanic Society of America, New York

â€œLeather hose are listed among a Mendozaâ€™s effects in 1530.â€