paste stones in SCA combat

CuSn · Post by **CuSn** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 9:53 am

I am a Jeweler and am thinking about making a set of decorative rivets that I saw in a book. They are on a cabaset and have floral scrolls aroound paste (glass) stones. does anybody know if thingsm like glass are not allowed on SCA combat helms. I have poked around a bit and can't seem to find anything one way or the other.

Aldred

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 11:02 am

That paste is going to shatter under impact. I wouldn't like to get any of it in my eye or in my opponents much less keep paying for the darn things. While there is not a specific "thou shall not" to cover this there is the general purpose "armor shall present no hazard" rules that this would presumably fall under. To be sure though you should contact the marshal in your area to get a feel for the rules.

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 2:49 pm

Aldred,

Are there any inexpensive semi-precious stones that would look good and be more durable than glass? A great many of us can't tell the difference, even up close, and if memory serves it was fairly common in period.

BTW, if anyone here hasn't visited his site (in his profile), you're missing a treat.

Bob

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sun Jun 09, 2002 1:41 am

Oop -- 404 File Not Found!

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Sun Jun 09, 2002 7:52 am

Blackwood?? Is that you?

CuSn · Post by **CuSn** » Sun Jun 09, 2002 11:11 am

Yes Vlad it is me.

I have since realized a much better way to do represent stones on armour. HOw do the understandably cautious members of this forum feel asbout plexiglass backed with colored foil? plastic is *cringe* used in armour anyway, and it is pretty durable stuff. There are also colored epoxies on the market which may be suitable. Any thoughts on either of those two materials?

ALdred

Constancius · Post by **Constancius** » Sun Jun 09, 2002 4:44 pm

Plexiglass is pretty stout stuff, no doubt there. My main concern, aside from personal safety, would be the additional wear and tear on the weapons. The bits and pieces of plexiglass would chew up the weapons like there was no tommorrow. I personally wouldn't want that. My weapons get torn up already, I don't want them torn up quicker.

My $.02

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Constancius of Lincolnshire

animis corporibusque

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Sun Jun 09, 2002 9:00 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Konstantin the Red:
Oop -- 404 File Not Found!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Make sure you delete the "http://www.armourarchive.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/" from the beginning of the address first. In the profile, the "http://" is missing from the beginning of the address, which causes this problm.

Here is the link anyway...

-Donasian.

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Sun Jun 09, 2002 11:23 pm

Arghhh. Another reason to use plastic. Arghhh.

I hate plastic.

Langdon · Post by **Langdon** » Mon Jun 10, 2002 7:42 am

A colored epoxy cast to shape would work very well. It would not be a brittle as a regular casting plastic. You also might wish to ad fiberglass mat to the mix. It will look like inclusions in the "stone" but it would bind the pieces together if the stone would crack.

Tim Finkas · Post by **Tim Finkas** » Mon Jun 10, 2002 9:06 am

Were stone settings even used on tournament armor? I'm no expert, but it seems more like a parade armor treatment.

BTW, nice buckles and stuff on your site!
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Tim Finkas<A HREF="http://finkas.home.netcom.com/HSB/HSBMAIN.html" TARGET=_blank>
Historical Stud & Buckle Company</A>

[This message has been edited by Tim Finkas (edited 06-10-2002).]

Munz · Post by **Munz** » Mon Jun 10, 2002 5:30 pm

I met a knight from An Tir (Sir Skeggi?) years back who had semi precious carnelians (a red jem stone) mounted on the bronze dragons over the occulars of his Sutton Hoo helm. Very nice, but I do recall him saying he had to replace them every so often when they got knocked out.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Mon Jun 10, 2002 8:12 pm

Hi Tim,

Nope, There seems to be a lot of evidence for the hity-toity - at least in the 15th century, to have such embellishments added to their armour. In the Grande Equestre of the Toisson d'Or the artists went to a great deal of trouble to depict such embelishments (although refined and not garish) on obvious fioeld harness - they depict the chivalry in all sorts of harness, from obvious tournament harness to field harness. You even have packing list inventories of such things being taken on campaign.

Presentation was far more important to that society than our own, conspicuous consumption was a hallmark of the nobility - who were expected to live up to their incomes. By putting wealth and power on display - taht is how you attracted followers.

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Bob R.

Tim Finkas · Post by **Tim Finkas** » Mon Jun 10, 2002 8:19 pm

Thnaks for the info, Chef. Was this also practiced in the 16th century as well?

CuSn · Post by **CuSn** » Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:49 pm

Thank you all for the compliments on my work. I spend a lot of time with my nose in books. But Mostly I see things and say, "Hey, I can make that."

I only really don't know too much about the criteria for what makes parade armor and what makes not parade armor. AS far as I can tell somebody somewhere said, "I wouldn't wear that to fight in it must be parade armor." Am I off base here. I realize that some is listed on an inventory list as parade armour, but did those people also own field armor?

Aldred

CuSn · Post by **CuSn** » Mon Jun 10, 2002 11:20 pm

I'm about to get long winded. This is a warning to anyone that MAy not be Really interested. If you're not stop reading now and you won't miss much.

Begin Tirade:

About putting stones on a helmet. All stones have a series of characteristics that are used to define their physical properties. The most prevalent are Hardness,Toughness, and Stabilty.

Stability has to do with color and it's behavior in ultra violet radiation. (sunlight) It doesn't really matter here.

Hardness is the ability to resist scratching. (ie Rattan cannot scratch a diamond) This is misleading to some. That doesn't mean that Diamonds can't be broken. I have broken one before. It just means that if you rub the two together the diamond will always scratch the other material never vice versa.

Toughness is the stone's ability to resist fracturing or chipping. For example Jade is a very tough stone. The Chinese used to make axe heads out of it.

I wouldn't think twice about putting Jade on a helmet. 6.5-7.5 hardness, very tough. A suitable choice. I would not expect Garnets to survive a hit. (maybe even to the opposite side of the helmet) There are some glasses that are both hard and durable. I would think that if marshalls let this guy on the field with any stones on his helmet, that any are going to be allowed. Your average marshall is not qualified to nay-say certain stones based on their sometimes obscure physical properties. After all a Gemstone is a rock and glass is Glass. The glass is always gonna break first, Right?

(if you believe that I have some yellow metal to sell you that I SWEAR is gold, it even glitters!)

Thank you for your patience while I vented. Now go get a cold beer. If you've read this far you'v earned it.

Aldred

Constancius · Post by **Constancius** » Tue Jun 11, 2002 2:37 am

I actually read through the whole thing. I even understood it. For the most part. I have a few questions for you.
1: The helm and legs are probably the most abused portion of the armour that we wear. I would venture to say the helms more so than the legs. How are you planning on attaching the stones to the helm? Will it come off?
2: You said that that hardness it the ability of the stone to resist scratching. My question is when mountoing the stone to the helm, how are you going to mount it. I know the is myay seem like I'm repeating myself, but I'm asking specificly. Is the stone going to be flush with the surface of the helm, or raised above it? If above the surface it's going to tear the rattan all to hell.
3: You said that toughness is the stones ability to resist cracking/fracturing. Of course I'll say the tougher the better. Uranium? Is that an option?

YOu mentioned Jade, what are some other stones that you would be willing to put on a helm to be used in SCA combat?
Over all I think that you're idea has real possibilities. I just think that you need really take a look a look at the abuse that the fittings and epoxies would be subjected to. The blows that they would be on the recieving end of are by no means light for the most part.
There is also the safety factor for the fighters. Talk to the local knight marchal about your idea and see what he has to say about it. Work with him on it. I look forward to reading you posts on this project. I'm really interested in it. Update us regularly on it, please.

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Constancius of Lincolnshire

animis corporibusque

Aelric · Post by **Aelric** » Tue Jun 11, 2002 11:26 am

If you worried about small bits of plastic somehow flying off and getting in your eye I think you may be a little paranoid. Has this ever happened? I mean I think its so remote of a possiblity that you may want to watch out for falling satalites if your worried about this. I mean, really, we're not talking about large panes of glass here but small stones.

If you are worried about sword damage I recommend that you dont use them. They last a lot longer that way. Ratan is a consumable. During my prime a sword would last me 6 weeks tops. Rivits, sharp ridges, bargrills, baskethilts and vervells are all murder on swords. Should we ban them too?

Aelric

Post by JT » Tue Jun 11, 2002 12:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Donasian:
Make sure you delete the "http://www.armourarchive.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/" from the beginning of the address first. In the profile, the "http://" is missing from the beginning of the address, which causes this problm.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CuSn could (should) edit his profile to change that.

Here is the link anyway...

You missed putting the http:// in the link, too.

Here is the link!

-- jt --

Patrick · Post by **Patrick** » Tue Jun 11, 2002 2:38 pm

Well, if the stones are fairly durable and well-mounted, I don't see how they'd do any more damage to my rattan than a spangenhelm. Seriously, if you want your sword to last longer, hit your opponent in the body. Avoid targetting the head at all. Lots of folks will appreciate fighting you!

Rattan doesn't last. So what? You spend, what? $10 on a stick? Add in a buck for the tape. If it lasts you 11 practices/tourneys, then you got a day of fighting for every dollar spent. And I would much rather fight someone who looks good. It means that I am not the only one who is putting effort into appearance.

I would prefer not to see glass on the helms, though. I know it is unlikely to get any in my eye, but I'd rather not take the chance. I once got a rattan sliver in my eye. Took a tippy shot right down the front of my helm and the eyeslot seems to have torn off a little splinter of rattan, which hit me in the eye. Taking off the helm, some cheeseweasel tried to "help" me by yanking on my helm from behind while I was removing it. This pulled the chinstrap right into the eye that had the sliver. I yelled at him for it and got chewed out for my yell by the guy whose sword had thrown the sliver at me in the first place. Anyway, freak accidents do happen. I'd rather you use fiberglass and epoxy or else the plexiglass. I'd feel better.

-Patrick

Constancius · Post by **Constancius** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 4:58 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Aelric:
If you worried about small bits of plastic somehow flying off and getting in your eye I think you may be a little paranoid. Has this ever happened? I mean I think its so remote of a possiblity that you may want to watch out for falling satalites if your worried about this. I mean, really, we're not talking about large panes of glass here but small stones.

Aelric<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pardon me all to Hell for trying to keep our hobby/ art/ sport/ ect. as safe as possible with out going over board. Jeez.
I know freak accidents do happen. Is it too awfully wrong to want to try to prevent it? Huh?

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Constancius of Lincolnshire

animis corporibusque

CuSn · Post by **CuSn** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 4:47 pm

Sorry it has taken me a while to get back to this. I had to take an emergency trip to Tennessee.

First, My website is

WWW.MGCUSTOMJEWELRY.COM

For best results just copy and paste.

Back to the stones. If you have ever seen a bezel that's how I would be mounting them. They would protrude from the surface of the helm, and would most likely end up taking hits. The whole idea came from a picture. What did they do in period? They replaced the stone or the whole setting if you were really rich.

To answer the other part of the question about what other stones would I use. The answer is Synthetic Spinel. It costs almost nothing. If the stones are cabachons they will not have exposed edges which would serve to focus the force on one point thus breaking the stone much more easily. While syn. Spinel is not overly tough it has a hardness of 8 and that aint bad. We learned on them in school and they can take a reciprocating hammer blow or two that strays off of metal and onto stone.

Realistically after hearing some reasonable replies here and from som e non-archivers, I don't think I wold reccomend stones on combat armor. I would push them towards plexiglass or some other simulacrum.

Aldred