extant 14th Cent kettle hats?
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Cet
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extant 14th Cent kettle hats?
Does anyone here know of any extant kettle hats dating from the last quarter of the 14th Century? I'm particularly interested in the type with high conical tops and horizontal brims shown in some contemporary illustrations.
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SyrRhys
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Hi,
The earliest extant kettle hat with which I'm familiar is supposed to date from c. 1430 and can be seen on pp. 88-89 of Curtis, H., _2,500 Years of European Helmets_. I make no claims for the accuracy of that dating, however (nor do I doubt it; insufficient data).
Why are you looking for an extant piece specifically? There are a *lot* of pictures of kettle hats from that period (e.g., see Edge & Paddock p. 73 or any of the Alticheri Chapel frescoes) in the literature, certainly enough, I think, to use as patterns.
By the way, I don't think most late 14th century kettle hat has horizontal brims; I think that most had sloped brims.
If you're making kettle hats, please remember me! I've been wanting one for a *long* time!
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
The earliest extant kettle hat with which I'm familiar is supposed to date from c. 1430 and can be seen on pp. 88-89 of Curtis, H., _2,500 Years of European Helmets_. I make no claims for the accuracy of that dating, however (nor do I doubt it; insufficient data).
Why are you looking for an extant piece specifically? There are a *lot* of pictures of kettle hats from that period (e.g., see Edge & Paddock p. 73 or any of the Alticheri Chapel frescoes) in the literature, certainly enough, I think, to use as patterns.
By the way, I don't think most late 14th century kettle hat has horizontal brims; I think that most had sloped brims.
If you're making kettle hats, please remember me! I've been wanting one for a *long* time!
------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
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Cet
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Hi Hugh, Yes, I do plan to make some kettle hats and I certainly wont forget you! I ask about an extant example just because I prefer to to work from a real object, or at least a photos of one, than from art work just because the former reduces the amount of interpretation. For example, in the example from Miles and Paddock is the line of rivets above the brim attaching a linning or fastening the brim to the bowl? The accentuated dark line along juncture of the brim and bowl suggests two piece construction, but then how is the linning attatched? I "ll give it my best guess if I have to, but I'd like to *know*. I don't have a copy of the other book- I really look forward to checking out your library some time- but I do have other sources with contemporary illustrations which got me thinking along this line. Your absolutly right about the brims being sloped, In my mind I was contrasting them to the very deep, sallet like, kettle hats of the 15th cent hence the "horizontal" reference. Specifically, what I have in mind to make is a kettle hat, circa late 14th century, with a conical top, similar to some bascinets of the period, and a sloping brim. It seems that I've seen a number of 14th century illustrations (unfortunately without listed provenance) of guys in lentners, plate legs, and mostly houdskull bascinets dukeing it out and there is always at least one guy with a kettle hat as I've described. I want to make that guys hat. They'll be constructed to start but hopefully this winter I'll have time and the set up to start raising.
Thanks for the input!
Dave
Thanks for the input!
Dave
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Erik Schmidt
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Hi Cet,
I'm afraid I only know of four extant kettle hats from the 14th century.
Three are scandinavian, of which I can send you pics(which I in fact got from the web somewhere), the fourth I hear exists somewhere in Southern Italy.
None of the ones from the scandinavian museums have the top shape you are looking for(they're rounded), but do have horizontal brims.
You will notice that the brim area is narrower than the widest part of the top. This means that the top must slope back in towards it's bottom edge, and the brim, which overlaps the top on the outside, must be bent up at more than 90degrees and shaped to fit the top. I recently tried it, and after several rebends of the brim edge I finally got it to match the top. Not easy! Maybe someone knows a better way to go about it.
Photos are in the e-mail.
Erik
I'm afraid I only know of four extant kettle hats from the 14th century.
Three are scandinavian, of which I can send you pics(which I in fact got from the web somewhere), the fourth I hear exists somewhere in Southern Italy.
None of the ones from the scandinavian museums have the top shape you are looking for(they're rounded), but do have horizontal brims.
You will notice that the brim area is narrower than the widest part of the top. This means that the top must slope back in towards it's bottom edge, and the brim, which overlaps the top on the outside, must be bent up at more than 90degrees and shaped to fit the top. I recently tried it, and after several rebends of the brim edge I finally got it to match the top. Not easy! Maybe someone knows a better way to go about it.
Photos are in the e-mail.
Erik
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chef de chambre
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Hi All,
There was also one found in London several decades ago, found in a bricked up chimney, and appropriatly converted to use as a kettle - I believe it can be seen in AAoMK - oops, just looked, and did not see it there, but it does exist and is not a figment of my imagination - it resides in the Museum of London (the old Guildhall museum), and it is precisely the form you are seeking to replicate. It didn't make 2500 years of European helmets as it hadn't been found when the book was published.
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Bob R.
There was also one found in London several decades ago, found in a bricked up chimney, and appropriatly converted to use as a kettle - I believe it can be seen in AAoMK - oops, just looked, and did not see it there, but it does exist and is not a figment of my imagination - it resides in the Museum of London (the old Guildhall museum), and it is precisely the form you are seeking to replicate. It didn't make 2500 years of European helmets as it hadn't been found when the book was published.
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Bob R.
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Cet
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Hi Everyone.
Erik and Hugo, thanks for the pics. Those are new to me and I think they are areally interesting style- definitely will go on mt to-do list.
Chef, thanks for jogging my memory. That helmet is in AAoMK, but in their chapter on the 15th Cent and they didn't list its' provennance. It does look like an example of what I'm looking for and the short comb on the bowl is an interesting feature which I don't think I would have derived from contemporary illustrations.
Thanks again
Dave.
Erik and Hugo, thanks for the pics. Those are new to me and I think they are areally interesting style- definitely will go on mt to-do list.
Chef, thanks for jogging my memory. That helmet is in AAoMK, but in their chapter on the 15th Cent and they didn't list its' provennance. It does look like an example of what I'm looking for and the short comb on the bowl is an interesting feature which I don't think I would have derived from contemporary illustrations.
Thanks again
Dave.