Landsknecht-how to?

Frederich Von Teufel · Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:53 pm

The best way to know what Landsknecht looked like, is to look at the art of the timeperiod. Here is one of the better books published at the moment:

"Landsknechte und Reislaufer: Bilder vom Soldaten" by Matthias Rogg

Much goodness; hundreds of paintings and woodcuts of the Landsknecht at play and at war. Only drawback is that the text is in German (surprise!) so if you don't read, you are only getting a small portion of the information.

Frederich
(a poor lapsed Landsknecht)

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:00 am

JP, yours looks more like swiss guard or German renisaunce than Landsknect correct?

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:12 pm

InsaneIrish wrote:JP, yours looks more like swiss guard or German renisaunce than Landsknect correct?

I'm afraid I'm not smart enough to answer that question.... someone else?

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:59 pm

Frederich Von Teufel wrote:The best way to know what Landsknecht looked like, is to look at the art of the timeperiod. Here is one of the better books published at the moment:

"Landsknechte und Reislaufer: Bilder vom Soldaten" by Matthias Rogg

Much goodness; hundreds of paintings and woodcuts of the Landsknecht at play and at war. Only drawback is that the text is in German (surprise!) so if you don't read, you are only getting a small portion of the information.

Frederich
(a poor lapsed Landsknecht)

Thanks for the reference Frederich, I went ahead and ordered it from amazon.de. A little pricy, but from your description it should be good.

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:38 pm

Jean Paul de Sens wrote:It is pleated, but did you mean something different.

In short, this one was a first pass at getting the distance look in time for Gulf Wars.

It is a good start. Pleating will look different based on how it is done and how the skirt is cut. The skirts on yours are cut as a long rectangle, sewn into a tube which is then pleated into the doublet. The period ones all seem to be cut in gores (think of the final "skirt" to pleat into the doublet as a large circle with a hole in the center). This changes the sillouette of the skirt quite a lot. They were also very "constructed", meaning lined so that the heavy fabric has a lot of body to it and doesn't wrinkle easily. The period Rocks' used for combat were actually part of the armor, not just a tabard cover.

The Rock my husband fights in is wool mohair velvet lined with canvas. It has padding in each pleat which becomes armor in itself. The coat could not easily be "cut" by real sword blows and provides some protection and deflection on its own.

Juliana

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:58 pm

FrauHirsch wrote:The period Rocks' used for combat were actually part of the armor, not just a tabard cover.

The Rock my husband fights in is wool mohair velvet lined with canvas. It has padding in each pleat which becomes armor in itself. The coat could not easily be "cut" by real sword blows and provides some protection and deflection on its own.

Juliana

Juliana, is this what you are talking about? I'm curious as I have always heard them called "bases". If not, do you have a pic of this per chance? Thanks,

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/renaissance-woodcuts/goldarmour_with_bases

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:27 pm

Jean Paul de Sens wrote:
InsaneIrish wrote:JP, yours looks more like swiss guard or German renisaunce than Landsknect correct?

I'm afraid I'm not smart enough to answer that question.... someone else?

LOL

I only know because Gabby is trying to make/get me into some German Renisance garb as opposed to my Landsknect which she says looks like I got into a fight with a Grizzly bear and lost. Bohemod wears the same stuff. If I remember correctly, Landsknect might be alittle earlier than the German Ren stuff you have. I could be wrong though.

Gabby says that "big" guys where German Ren stuff and it looks good on them. NOw that you are skinny how come you are still wearing it? :shock:

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:35 pm

FrauHirsch wrote:
Jean Paul de Sens wrote:It is pleated, but did you mean something different.

In short, this one was a first pass at getting the distance look in time for Gulf Wars.

It is a good start. Pleating will look different based on how it is done and how the skirt is cut. The skirts on yours are cut as a long rectangle, sewn into a tube which is then pleated into the doublet. The period ones all seem to be cut in gores (think of the final "skirt" to pleat into the doublet as a large circle with a hole in the center). This changes the sillouette of the skirt quite a lot. They were also very "constructed", meaning lined so that the heavy fabric has a lot of body to it and doesn't wrinkle easily. The period Rocks' used for combat were actually part of the armor, not just a tabard cover.

The Rock my husband fights in is wool mohair velvet lined with canvas. It has padding in each pleat which becomes armor in itself. The coat could not easily be "cut" by real sword blows and provides some protection and deflection on its own.

Juliana

Juliana, one thing that made us say eek to cutting out the gored version is the making the stripe part. When you make them gored and in the semicircle, do you have to cut the stripe in a semi-circle too?

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:24 pm

Jean Paul de Sens wrote:Juliana, one thing that made us say eek to cutting out the gored version is the making the stripe part. When you make them gored and in the semicircle, do you have to cut the stripe in a semi-circle too?

Depends on how wide the stripe is and what fabric it is. Some fabrics can be cut on the bias and curved with a steam iron.

Its really not that bad to cut them in an arc.

-J

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:32 pm

Jason Grimes wrote:
FrauHirsch wrote:The period Rocks' used for combat were actually part of the armor, not just a tabard cover.

The Rock my husband fights in is wool mohair velvet lined with canvas. It has padding in each pleat which becomes armor in itself. The coat could not easily be "cut" by real sword blows and provides some protection and deflection on its own.

Juliana

Juliana, is this what you are talking about? I'm curious as I have always heard them called "bases". If not, do you have a pic of this per chance? Thanks,

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/renaissance-woodcuts/goldarmour_with_bases

Yes, though that is an atypical one and the only one I've seen like that. Is it pre -1500? It is still cut clearly in a circle, but is not as full as they typically are and is of much finer and thinner "decorative" fabrics so looks like an artist's sitting, rather than a picture of someone actually in a battle or on horseback. Looks like there may be some artistic adjustments.

"Bases" is the English name for the same thing in German. From what I've seen they call it a "Rock" whether it has an upper body garment or is just a skirt.

Juliana

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:29 pm

I scanned it from "SpÃƒÂ¤tmittelalter am Oberrhein - Maler und WerkstÃƒÂ¤tten 1450-1525" and as far as I remember it dates from about 1510. I will check on the reference tonight and get back to you.

Thank you for the correct term. So they called it the same for either the bases or the gown, this is interesting. Could they have been made as a separate skirt that was sometimes worn over armour and sometimes worn with a doublet? Kind of a clothing garniture?

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:02 pm

Ok here is the full scoop on the picture. It was painted by Hans Baldung in 1509/1510. The subject is the Margrave Christoph I and his family. Currently the painting is in Karlsruhe, Staatliche Kunsthalle Karlsruhe. As a Margrave, Christoph must have had money to buy the best, so I'm assuming that the Rock he is wearing was made of cut velvet and silk. Maybe that is the reason for how it drapes like it does?? Hope this helps,

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 4:03 pm

http://wwar.com/masters/b/burgkmair-works.html This selection of online art might help.

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:30 am

I have a serious question. How many folks out there are working on a landsknect persona, guarb, and/or armour? How many would if you had the resources?

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 12:08 pm

kass wrote: They will be available for sale starting 19 June at the Landsknecht SCA event in Pennsylvania (to which you are all cordially invited). The planned patterns are:

1520s Doppelsoldner's Outfit (doublet, hose, jerkin and hat)
1520s Hauptman's Gown
1560s Doublet and Pluderhosen
1520s Kampfrau's Dress
1520s Saxon Gown (Cranach Gown)

I think this includes a waffenfrok, Karl, but I'm not entirely sure what it is. If I'm translating correctly, it's what I'm calling "The Hauptman's Gown".

Kass

Are you taking pre-orders?

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 3:57 pm

I think this includes a waffenfrok, Karl, but I'm not entirely sure what it is. If I'm translating correctly, it's what I'm calling "The Hauptman's Gown".

Kay.. "Rock" = coat.

WaffenRock = "warcoat".. its a modern term, there is, really, no basis for it in period that I or the others I know who research this schtuff have ever seen.. but its the skirted coat that you usually see on LK's.

Maeryk

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:36 pm

I have a serious question. How many folks out there are working on a landsknect persona, guarb, and/or armour? How many would if you had the resources?

The wife and I, and at least 10 people in our shire are.

Its somewhat popular right now.

I find the german-ren-costume Yahoo group to be IMMENSELY helpful.

(Theres some German LH folks on there)

Maeryk

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 8:52 pm

[quote="Maeryk"
Kay.. "Rock" = coat.

WaffenRock = "warcoat".. its a modern term, there is, really, no basis for it in period that I or the others I know who research this schtuff have ever seen.. but its the skirted coat that you usually see on LK's.

Maeryk[/quote]

It also refers to women's gowns, and often has descriptive wording attached in period. IMHO, "Waffenrock" may have been coined as a modern costume researchers term (not coined by the SCA, but used by Kohler and other costume authors) to describe the generic German mens basecoat, however in period actually had different names based on what doublet and sleeves were attached and whether it was split in front or back. It may be a bastardization of Wappenrock, which is the Heraldic "rock"..

Just like we tend to use the word "farthingale" for hoops, however in period they were noted as "verdingale" "fardingale", "verthingale", etc.

So modern costumers tend to genericize it into a single term.

Just a thought,

Juliana

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:11 am

mattmaus wrote:
kass wrote: They will be available for sale starting 19 June at the Landsknecht SCA event in Pennsylvania (to which you are all cordially invited). The planned patterns are:

1520s Doppelsoldner's Outfit (doublet, hose, jerkin and hat)
1520s Hauptman's Gown
1560s Doublet and Pluderhosen
1520s Kampfrau's Dress
1520s Saxon Gown (Cranach Gown)

I think this includes a waffenfrok, Karl, but I'm not entirely sure what it is. If I'm translating correctly, it's what I'm calling "The Hauptman's Gown".

Kass

Are you taking pre-orders?

Ditto... I'd be interested also.

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:24 am

Maeryk - where is your local group? Are you able to post pictures?

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:59 am

WE are in Northeast PA. We occasionally get visited by the "maryland landsknechts" who do the MA renfair, and some other groups.

Being an SCA group, we arent, as a whole, anywhere near "living history" quality.. but we are getting there, slowly but surely. I'll see if I can scrounge up some photos and get them online.

Maeryk

kass · Post by **kass** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:59 pm

Jean Paul de Sens wrote:
mattmaus wrote:
Are you taking pre-orders?

Ditto... I'd be interested also.

Sorry I couldn't reply earlier, guys.

The timeline for the release of the Landsknecht pattern has been revised by my distributor. So they will not be available in time for the Landsknecht event in PA in July. However, a few of the prototypes for the patterns will be worn at that event if you should happen to be there to see them.

We plan to have the patterns available to ship to retailers in time for Pennsic.

I'll consider taking pre-orders. But honestly, guys, I don't want to take your money in April for something I know I cannot deliver until early August. But if you join my pattern list (see the link below), I will announce there when pre-orders will commence.

Thanks for your interest!

Kass

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 7:26 am

Maeryk - please don't keep me hanging. I really do want to see what/who is out there.

Why are you apologizing for the SCA vs "living history" groups? With all of our resources in the SCA (like this site) we should be the best at anything we want. I've seen hundreds of LH groups in Europe and the states and the best are merely photogenic posers and occasionally truly skilled craftsmen but few have deapth that the SCA is capable of. My current "kick" (25 years overdue) is to help make landsknecten more common in the SCA than samurai. The real landsknect would have automatically thought that I mean to kill off samurai, but I have no problems with good looking samurai either. I would like to help other landsknecten if/as I can. I have some good deals on leather for example.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 7:38 am

Karl Helweg wrote:I've seen hundreds of LH groups in Europe and the states and the best are merely photogenic posers and occasionally truly skilled craftsmen but few have deapth that the SCA is capable of.

Oh please, lets not start this type of thread.

And I am an exceptional craftsman :wink:

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 1:53 pm

I am not trying to start such a thread here. Plenty of those already. SCA just doesn't have to accept being second class citizens as being good enough. So what would you offer to help those of us who want to do a better landsknect persona? We haven't brought up armour much yet.

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 2:32 pm

Armor is pretty easy.

Get a copy of imperial austria, pick any half harness out of the book (ok... maybe not that easy but pretty close). Covers you easily waist up.

I make some spiff burgonets for SCA use, if I do say so myself.

Legs get trickier. Hidden leg armor from the knees up. I hesitate to say it... but plastic. It seems to work better for under the clothes armor. I hope to son be experimenting with different steel knees, as well... plastic on my knees is kinda scary as I get older and more decrepit. The big problem is that steel tears up the pants you put over them more than plastic. Since there hidden anyway, I have some cloth foam stuff that's really thin (less than 1/4 inch) that could make a buffer between pants and knee. glue it right onto the steel, and don't worry about rust either....

Pants over the leg armor. Probably need to be more blousy than actuality. :/

Steel cased greaves, covered on the outside with cloth. Striped is my preference, to simulate the tighter hose/en on the lower legs.

Still figuring out how to make my combat boots look like bear paws.

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 6:56 pm

Mattmaus - being a cheap bastage myself, I still have to ask how much for the sturmburgonet? Stainless? Don't suppose that you have a later lobster tail version?

I have been working on the Swabian Hauptman armour (which there is a WONDERFUL photo of on the Fighting forum here) and I was very pleased with how it worked at Gulf Wars this year. I got brave and went out in bear paws and hose and had no problem (knocking on wood). Just can't get the elbows to come out as pretty as the photo or Angus McBride's art.

Any simple tips on fluting?

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:07 am

mattmaus wrote:Armor is pretty easy.

I make some spiff burgonets for SCA use, if I do say so myself.

PICS PICS

WEBSITE WEBSITE :!:

I am always on the look out for a good looking SCA Burgonet for my Landsknect kit.

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:32 am

This one is mine...

<img src="http://members.armourarchive.org/mattmaus/batburg1.jpg">

The buff doesn't move. It's for SCA use and I didn't feel the need to dink and fiddle with the atriculation and more difficult means of keeping it closed.

This one is more basic.

<img src="http://members.armourarchive.org/mattmaus/burgonetb1.jpg">

Only thing I'd really want to change on it would be the front bottom. It lines up poorly, and is not articulated like the back.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:17 pm

How much would you charge for an SCA legal, 1/2-3/4 Buffe, (ie, plate buffe about 1/2 to 3/4 ways up the face and then finished off with bargrill)articulated neck high comb Burgonet with spring pins or sneck hooks?

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:29 pm

Karl Helweg wrote:We haven't brought up armour much yet.

Biggest problem with the SCA versus the reality of the Landsknecht is armor. Most Landsknechts didn't wear armor, if they did it was 3/4 armor with no back, gauntlets, or knee coverage, just a breastplate with huge faulds and an open face helm. The popular Landsknecht cloths won't fit under a full German harness of the time. Makes it hard to do Landsknecht as an SCA fighting kit.

Maybe hidden armor with a nice helm would work out, but I think doing clothing right first is the key, I hope Kass's patterns will make it easy for people.

When I get to my Landsknecht outfit I only plan to wear it at events I won't fight at.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:41 pm

James B. wrote:
Karl Helweg wrote:We haven't brought up armour much yet.

Biggest problem with the SCA versus the reality of the Landsknecht is armor. Most Landsknechts didn't wear armor, if they did it was 3/4 armor with no back, gauntlets, or knee coverage, just a breastplate with huge faulds and an open face helm. The popular Landsknecht cloths won't fit under a full German harness of the time. Makes it hard to do Landsknecht as an SCA fighting kit.

What kind of Documentation do you have to support that? Most of what I have read or seen in woodcuts and period illuminations has Landsknect in full breast and back with fauld/tasset/leg armour combo. I can't remember what they are called but they start at the waist and articulate all the way to the knee. An open face helm, yes, but usually a Burgonet or an armet. Both can be made for SCA fighting. Ok, no gaunts but you can get german 16th cent gaunts that will be SCA legal and look the part. There are quite a few people in the SCA that can and do pull off Landsknect persona quite well. With the way Landsknect clothing looks and fits (depending on the time period) you can do relatively easy hidden bits of armour and not sacrifice much of the look.

Look at Waldryk's site:
http://www.waldryk.com/
in the "body" section there is a very nice set of 3/4 pikeman/landsknect armour that could be easily added to be fully SCA legal. Ie, hidden simple knees, hidden simple elbows, gauntlets, gorget and helm and you got it.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:51 pm

I meant tassets not faulds in my last statement.

Here are some period woodcuts from the St. Max groups site:
[img]http://www.st-max.org/images/woodcuts/Landsknechts-Color.jpg[/img]

One of the four men even has armor and it is a breastplate with large tassets. That kind of armor does not protect the knee as required by SCA rules.

Same thing here, the leader has 3/4 armor not the whole group:
[img]http://www.st-max.org/images/woodcuts/Landsknechts-Doppels.jpg[/img]

As I said you would need hidden elements, even Waldryk's suit is not meeting SCA minimums. You would still need elbow, knees, a kidney protection, and a gorget.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 3:04 pm

Yes, you would need those hidden elements, (like I said in the post just above your reply).

BUT, it CAN be done and done well, to achieve a very realistic look on the field.

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 3:12 pm

InsaneIrish - the pikeman armour on Waldryk's site is nice. Similar to the "Swabian Hauptman" armour that I'm working on. My elbows need improvements but the armour worked very well at last Gulf Wars.

Mattmaus - I'm still afraid to ask but how much? Possibly with a "curl" at the temple and all vertical bars lik the sturmburgonet in "Arms and Uniforms: The Age of Chivalry Part 3" shows? You do very nice peircing and rolling. If you would like e-mail me off line at THEKarlMarx@cs.com

Still trying to figure out how to post pictures of my kit here......

Landsknecht-how to?

Re: Patterns?

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Re: Patterns?

Re: Patterns?

Maximilian Triumph.

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Armour