3 piece vs 5 piece joint armour

[ScottC]

In your guy's experience which works best, a cop with 2 or 4 lames? Does it matter? Does a well-done 3 piece articulate as well as a well-done 5 piece? As well as a poorly-done 5 piece?

I have a set of arms I need to shorten to work for me, and I was thinking of removing a pair of lames to do the trick. Bad idea? Thanks.

ScottC

[Sasha]

The traditional set up for leg armour is mostly 1lame up then cuisse, two lames down then greave.
This is just the "most common" approach, iit is by no means the only way to go.

I usually do a two up, two down for knees.

What it all hangs on is the shape of the cop and the width and curvature of each lame. what I mean by curvature is whether the lame is dished or flat.

If you do not mind having a cop that sticks out a bit then you will probably go with fewer lames.
If you want something that sits as flat to the leg as possible then you will go for a shallow dished cop with more narrower lames.

The more heavily dished (sticky outy) knee cops tend to be stronger and the fewer lames there are the less there tends to be to go wrong.
as most people build the cop out of a heavier metal then the lames, having a smaller flatter cop with many lames of lighter material creates a piece of armour that may look good, may function buitifully when built, but will likely be the same weight as the alternative (all those overlapping sections and extra rivets) but will be considerably less durable on the field.

I find that trying to change the number of lames in an existing piece of armour that already articulates properly is a recipe for sorrow. It is either easier to build a new one from scratch or to change the length by cutting either cuisse or greave (or vambrace or rearbrace in the case of arms).

Sasha

[DanNV]

How well they work depends on the workmanship. MOst SCA armor needs the extra lames to bend because the knees are way too shallow when compared to a period piece.

Historically, 14th century knees tend to have less lames. 15th century and later have more.

Dan

[white mountain armoury]

i have found that for elbows 2 lames is fine, you can usually get the little bit extra that you need from motion in the vambrace and rebrace.
traditional knee articulations, mostly 14th cent type are not enough for knee fighting, there tends to be enough motion to kneel but not enough to sit back on your heels so the 2 above and below arrangement solves the issue.

[AB Hammer]

Hopefully you have a good articulation on your arms,
then you can remove a lame safely, its best not to ride on your wrist.
As articulations go.
You have your cop-which should be well dished,
your main articulations, then the rider plates.
The vanbrace or rearbrace can work as rider plates.
As said before depends on the quality, and how
much movement you willing to loose.

Good luck
ABHAMMER

[Frederich Von Teufel]

Let me give you a bit of background of my philosophy of articulation first, because it should help you to understand where I'm coming from on this subject.

Articulation is the one thing that completely separates an armourer from any other sheet metal worker. A blacksmith may be able to make all the right shapes of metal, but if he doesn't know how to articulate, than the peice will never be more than an ill-fitting chunk of metal.

Articulation is the complete recreation of the the motion and movement of the body part that is covered. Articulation should also recreate this movement without any effort of the respective covered body part (i.e. if you can make an arm harness bend only through effort, then it has failed in it's task.)

Now, go look at yourself in a mirror. Really, it's important. Now, while looking at yourself in a mirror, bend your arm. See how it's pointy at the tip? Now bend your leg. See how no matter you bend it, the shape of the knee is rounded. This is why you can't just resize and use an elbow cop pattern for a knee pattern, the body parts are of different shapes.

Now, while you're at that mirror, bend your arm again. Look at the angle the outside of your arm makes when bent. The arm harness must bend at _least_ that amount, preferably more. Now straighten your arm. The arm harness must reflect that arc of articulation, or your fighting technique is being hampered by your harness. Now do the same test with your leg. Note that when you leg is straightened, it bends past the "straight" point; I call this the "de-articulation zone". Your leg harness should reflect the entire arc of movement of you leg _or better_. Better is, obviously, better. I'd much rather have a harness that was more flexible than I was, and you should too.

Now, what this comes down to is that my elbow cops have two lames (one on either side of the cop) because that better reflects the arc of the elbow they cover. My knee cops use four lames (two on either side of the cop) because that fits the roundness of the knee better.


Frederich

[AB Hammer]

So Frederich I wish I could put such things so eloquent.
But using every day terms, if it has more movement that you do,
you can afford to remove a lame.
If not sell it and get another pair that fits.
Armour should have at least a little more movement without binding,
than you do.

ABHAMMER

[Gaston]

Something that all these armourers know and just didn't mention, and I finally discovered - the hinge points of the elbow and knee are not at the same relative place. Therefore, the pivot points on the defenses for each will be much different.

Bend your elbow and feel for the "center" of the pivot with your other hand. I'll bet it's closer to the point of your elbow than you expected it to be. The knees are totally different.

Finding that pivot point is the key to making point and lace articulation (my new very best friend) work right, and I'm sure they are equally important to other methods.