charcoal

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 8:24 pm

planing to start up the metal smithing a bit once the weather heats up a bit.(last night it hit -12).
being that Im cheep.
how would some one go about making charcoal
could I take a large steel drum start a wood fire in it wait till its burning good and just cover it up for a day or two?
or should I go about it a different way.
planing to do forge welding but mostly just regular hot work with steel if that makes much difference.

Snaebjorn Hakonarson · Sat Jan 10, 2004 8:52 pm

Look for coke. It burns cleaner and hotter. Its great stuff. I don't know where to look. My master has been picking it up for me.

Bjorn Swiftaxe

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Snaebjorn Haakonsson, called Swiftaxe. Son of Haakon Thorvaldsson, called Oaktall. Son of Thorvald Jarlsson, called Greybeard.

Boy I have a long name.

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:32 pm

http://www.google.com/search?q=making%20charcoal&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Friedrich · Post by **Friedrich** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:39 pm

There might be a coal source in NY close to you. In SE Mass in Braintree, there is a coal dealer that offers forge coal (coke) that they sell by the pound or the ton.

http://www.mywilliamsenergy.com/coal.html

The coal is the same used at Plimouth Plantation and Sturbridge Village.

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:47 pm

Bjorn; any info on when coke became the fuel used by smiths? IIRC I have a cite for coal being used by smiths in the high middle ages---in some places.

If he wants to do authentic smithing charcoal is a good choice as it was used from the start of the iron age till today for forging amd for forgewelding both the viking pattern welded blades and the japanese katanas were welded using charcoal.

Making it can be done directly and indirectly.

The direct method of starting the fire and when it's going good sealing off the air takes some experience to get good at. (I used to do this in smaller ammounts using scrap wood and two metal sinks)

The indirect "retort" method is a bit more work as you heat the barrel without letting air into it, but has a faster learning curve.

Both are coverd on the net; Primal Fires
http://pub53.ezboard.com/bprimalfires
has had a lot of info on making and smithing with charcoal on it.

Thomas

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:35 am

Here's a good refence for one way to make a charcoal retort. http://64.176.180.203/charcoalretort.htm You can also do it with a smaller barrel inside a larger barrel and burn between the two. You don't want to start a fire inside the barrel, but use the fire to cook the wood inside the barrel. It's an indirect method and will work a lot better.

Coal really did not get used a lot until the 1700's. It was mainly hardwood charcoal until then. Corn cobs, walnut shells, etc, can also be used like charcoal.

Jamie

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Jamie
jamie@polarbearforge.com
Polar Bear Forge - Custom knives

that guy · Post by **that guy** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:07 am

if you can find a supplier of coke in your area you will be much happier.

Snaebjorn Hakonarson · Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Thomas Powers:
Bjorn; any info on when coke became the fuel used by smiths? IIRC I have a cite for coal being used by smiths in the high middle ages---in some places.

If he wants to do authentic smithing charcoal is a good choice as it was used from the start of the iron age till today for forging amd for forgewelding both the viking pattern welded blades and the japanese katanas were welded using charcoal.

Thomas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't have a clue when they started using coke but I do know that it does burn cleaner and without as much smoke. Which is useful. Cleaner burning means less junk on the metal as your working it. (I'm still new so I don't have the exact names of stuff memorized yet.)

And I find its easier to work on something when you don't get the nasty black smoke blowing into your face on occassion. And it always seem to happen just the metal is ready to drawn from the fire. Coughing fits can really damage a good blade if you swing wrong because of it. This is just my opinon.

Bjorn Swiftaxe

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Snaebjorn Haakonsson, called Swiftaxe. Son of Haakon Thorvaldsson, called Oaktall. Son of Thorvald Jarlsson, called Greybeard.

Boy I have a long name.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:52 pm

Just to let you know. DO NOT USE COAL. it ;eaves sulphur 'deposits' in the steel and makes it structurally weak. plus it's bad for you lungs.

------------------
OPEN NOW.
HAYMAN ARMOURY.
just knives for now but just wait. e-mail me at thomas_hayman@hotmail.com for more information.

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by thomas hayman:
Just to let you know. DO NOT USE COAL. it leaves sulphur 'deposits' in the steel and makes it structurally weak. plus it's bad for you lungs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While just about any amount of smoke and dust is bad for you, proper ventilation and safety measures make this a non issue.

There is also no problem using coal. Coal is not all equal, some has high amounts of sulfur, and some has low. Obviously the low is preferable. Proper coking of coal will reduce the amount of sulfur near the steel to be absorbed as well.

Jamie

------------------
Jamie
jamie@polarbearforge.com
Polar Bear Forge - Custom knives

Alexander · Post by **Alexander** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 6:13 am

Servus!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by polarbearforge:
Proper coking of coal will reduce the amount of sulfur near the steel to be absorbed as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This will also make you very popular amongst your neighbors when you attempt this!

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Courage does not always roar. Sometimes, it is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, 'I will try again tomorrow'

Herr Alexander

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 6:47 am

An advantage of both charcoal and coke, over coal, is that they are both reducing agents - they are both "oxygen hungry", and any iron oxide (rust) that forms in the forging process gives up its oxygen to the charcoal/coke, making the iron far less likely to rust.

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Egfroth

"I hope all your chooks turn to Emus and kick your dunny down."

see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 7:23 am

luckly for me my neibors are working people or retired art teachers.

Gobae · Post by **Gobae** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:53 am

Yes, coal was finally being used with more regularity in the High Middle Ages. Since 80% of the world's coal supply is soft coal, coke was in use with the first soft coal fire. Coke is the result of incomplete soft coal combustion after all, so the two were in use simultaneously.

How early was coal in use? Well, there is a new evidence that at least one area in Scotland was using it as early as the 100-200BCE. http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba2/ba2news.html#coal But generally speaking Thomas is right; it is more historically accurate for most areas and time periods to use charcoal.

I have a friend make it for me. He dumps *softwood* into a steel 50 gal drum (3/4 full), turns it on its side (but off the ground supported by cinder blocks) and then lights a fire under it. The drum has a pipe with holes drilled in it that comes out the top and bends 180 degrees so when the barrel is laid on its side the pipe is underneath. And that's it. 4-5 hours later the barrel is full of charcoal.

Oh, I almost forgot to add that since it looks like (from your profile info) that you're in Out-state NY, you may want to get in contact with NYS Designer Blacksmiths. http://nysdb.abana-chapter.com/ Even though you'd think by the name that they're state-wide the bulk of the group is in Central and Out-state NY, so I'm sure they can give you resource leads.

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Swordsmith
Oak & Acorn Ancient Metalcrafts
http://www.oakandacorn.com

[This message has been edited by Swordsmith (edited 01-14-2004).]

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 9:40 am

The following is something I posted back in '99 at the Blacksmith's Virtual Junkyard ( http://www.keenjunk.com/ ). I still use ricked charcoal, and after the hurricane, I have plenty of stock about the farm for further fuel needs. Ricking is not as efficient in terms of fuel consumption, but in terms of man hours, minimal equipment, and convenience it works quite well.

"ADVENTURES IN CHARCOAL (AND OTHER FUELS):

I recently ran short of bituminous coal and, lacking good suppliers, I turned to my stash of charcoal, which I had carefully hoarded for reenactments using our Viking style side-by-side bellows and stone forge.

I had three types of charcoal available: store-bought hardwood chunk charcoal, some pit-fired charcoal that we had run a year or two back, and some rick charcoal that I cooked up this Autumn.

As discussed in a previous post above- to make pit charcoal you dig a 3'X 3'X 3' pit, fill it full of leg size logs with the brush and branches as kindling, fire it up, cover it over with tin and turf until it's air tight, and be patient. The next morning CHARCOAL (maybe, or maybe ashes if the air got to it, or maybe scorched wood if you covered it over too soon). Then you just shovel it out, make sure there are NO LIVE COALS, and bag it for future use.

Rick firing is the lazy man's method. It's my favorite because it solves two problems around our farm: it gets rid of tree limbs and brushwood and whatever sections of felled trees too gnarled or knotty or tough for fire wood or lumber, and it provides a useable product for the forge. On top of that, it gives you an excuse for a bonfire! (Please note that I'm doing this in low, swampy, verdant Southern Maryland. Do not try this in high, dry, windy Southern California!)

You take a core of brush, then pile on larger limbs and chunks, then more brush, more larger stuff until you have a dome shaped pile about 4' high. If you have more stuff, keep it in a separate pile to fuel the fire as it burns down. HAVE YOUR WATER HOSE, GARDEN RAKES AND SHOVELS READY! Hose down the surrounding grass, light the pile and stand back. Add wood and brush as needed. Don't catch fire yourself.

Shovel and rake until your satisfied that you have the tidy pile of coals you want and then hose the whole lot down. Rake it a bit. Hose some more. Wake up three times during the night, find the hot spots, and hose some more. Then all you do (once it is truly out) is to rake it out, let it dry a couple of days, and sieve it through a couple of grades of rat wire to get rid of the ashes and finer flecks. Yes, it is more wasteful than pit or kiln firing, but the primary objective was to get rid of the brush pile! Besides, the recently deceased Japanese maple coaled up very nicely.

BURNING the STUFF I think Moxon in his Mechanics Exercises (1703?) warns against the fire "breaking out". Well with a bottom draft forge, you get "blowouts". I spent a lot more time tending the fire, using the slice and water sprinkler (ladle, actually)" (...these days I use the traditional broom whisk)... "to keep the charcoal heaped up. Consumption was nothing short of amazing, and when it did burn thin, you'd goose up the blower and be faced with a blowout in which a spectacular shower of pea to BB size yellow hot coals would blow towards the chimney, left, right or towards me! Yep, there's nothing more attention getting than a hot coal down the gauntlet cuff of your work glove! As stated by others, it is a very clean fire but ashy. After a few weekends the forge looked a little snowy, especially after a blowout. Welding is tougher, due to the consumption rate, but maybe I should keep the charcoal wetter. Experience will tell." One trick (adapted from colonial period smiths, is to put a sheet or plate of iron over the mound to hold it together and reflect the heat for welding.

"...The charcoal is back in the bags waiting for our next Viking or Anglo-Saxon reenactment with the side draft forge. (At a reenactment if you make a nail or a pot hook the public is awe-struck, since they know that their ignorant ancestors dressed in skins and beat each other's horny helmets in with clubs!)

OTHER FUELS When I started out a few years back, I used anthracite. It stayed lit with the electric blower on low, and you could get it hot enough to easily faggot weld. The problem was, it coked as individual pieces and had a lot of unconsolidated clinker, so that you would spend a lot of time sorting and cleaning the fuel afterwards. It was also hard to start, and that's where I discovered the perfect use of the "Readylite" style charcoal briquettes! Pop a few of those suckers in the tuyer, light 'em up, turn up the blast, shovel on the coke and anthracite, and you're on your way. And if that doesn't work for you, you can always cook a hotdog with the remainder!"

I hope this is useful.

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Full time civil servant, part time blacksmith, and seasonal Viking ship captain.

Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov

Go viking: www.longshipco.org/

Hit hot iron: www.anvilfire.com

Markland Medieval Mercenary Militia: http://www.markland.org

Agincourt · Post by **Agincourt** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 9:56 am

Centaur forge sells good blacksmithing coal by the bag. Like most things from Centaur forge you are going to pay way too much.

Never tried charcoal but I am about to. Anvilfire has some good links in their FAQ's relating to charcoal. Interesting note, supposedly 1 lbs coal gives off roughly the same heat as 1 lbs charcoal. So you are going to need alot of charcoal.

Don't discount the ease and utter convieninece of a gas forge. You light a scrap of paper, turn on the gas, take a heat and 5 minutes later you are working. Course forge welding can be sketchy business depending on your forge.

[This message has been edited by Agincourt (edited 01-14-2004).]

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:50 pm

polarbear> i was always brought up to believe that coal was bad no matter what it's sulphur content.

------------------
OPEN NOW.
HAYMAN ARMOURY.
just knives for now but just wait. e-mail me at thomas_hayman@hotmail.com for more information.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jan 15, 2004 11:12 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by thomas hayman:
polarbear> i was always brought up to believe that coal was bad no matter what it's sulphur content.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If Jamie doesn't mind me responding...

Basically, and fuel that has low impurities (especially sulfur) and supplies enough heat is a good thing. I don't even worry about moderate sulfur for things like barn hinges and cookpots. If I were doing a very delicate, thin, technical high carbon or alloy steel blade, I'd certainly consider charcoal or very low sulfur coal or coke; but botched heat treatments probably muck up more blades than sulfur does.

------------------
Full time civil servant, part time blacksmith, and seasonal Viking ship captain.

Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov

Go viking: www.longshipco.org/

Hit hot iron: www.anvilfire.com

Markland Medieval Mercenary Militia: http://www.markland.org

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:22 am

Nope, don't mind at all if ya respond. Pretty much what Atli said.

I use propane for just about everything, except for some historically accurate-ish demos.

Remember when forming steel, heat is heat. Whether it's from charcoal, coal, coke, propane, natural gas, walnut husks, electricity, or manure.

Jamie

------------------
Jamie
jamie@polarbearforge.com
Polar Bear Forge - Custom knives

ULTRAGOTHA · Post by **ULTRAGOTHA** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:07 am

I gave Cap'n Atli, over the years we had a fire place and lived close to him, several cubic feet of charcoal from my fire place. He used this and his rick charcoal for historically accurate demos.

We burn a fire most nights, unless it's really, really too hot outside to do so.

When it's time for bed, we don't want a fire burning in the fire place. So I shovel all the coals into a large-sized Danish Butter Cookie tin, and slam the lid down on it. Toss the tin back into the fire place, and in the morning I have nice chunks of charcoal.

This won't work for day-to-day forging. But it's a very cheap and easy way to build up charcoal for forging demos to the public.

Or, if you don't have a fire place, you can go to Trader Joes or any decent BBQ store, and buy lump charcoal in bags.

For day-to-day forging, coal or propane works quite well. And is a heck of a lot cheaper, unless you have your own hurricane-ravished farm and time on your hands.

ETA: Atli, will you be doing a forge demo at MTA in March? If so, we can start saving charcoal now. We're burning at least 6 logs a night. The wood stove, even with the fan broken, is keeping the family room warmer than the hot water baseboard right now. Brrrr.

[This message has been edited by ULTRAGOTHA (edited 01-16-2004).]