Sword (rattan) balance point

Hubert · Post by **Hubert** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 1:48 pm

I was hoping someone could help me. I'm still fairly new at fighting and I'm putting together my first sword. I've got all the hardware I need, I've shaved the stock down and I'm about to put it together. But I haven't been able to find out anywhere where I should aim for the swords balance point to be. I did a search of the archive, and couldn't find anything (if there is something there I apologize for the bandwidth).

Anywho, could someone possibly help me out. It's just a standard longsword with a basket hilt. Also if I need to shift the balance point (at the moment it doesn't seem balanced) how would I go about doing that? Would it just be to thicken up the tape in a certain area?

Thanks a ton.

Sixtus_Goetz · Post by **Sixtus_Goetz** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:37 pm

Greetings,

Balance points are much a personal choice. I personally have mine within 3 inches of the cross hilts. I've handled others that were as much as 9 inches in front. One thing you can do to bring the balance point back is add a pommel. If using a basket hilt, have a little extra rattan at the pommel end. Or you can drill out the handle area and melt some lead into it < be carefull, lead fumes are toxic < not to mention realy realy hot <grin>>>. Both my swords have an internal lead weight to balance them out. I have also been known to wrap a crapload of duct tape < is heavier > along the pommel end to balance it out.

Keep messing with it untill it becomes confortable for you. On the other hand. To much balance and lead you to hit on the lighter side, think tippy.

Thrusty's will add a bit to the tip weight.

Saranac Goetz

Hubert · Post by **Hubert** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 4:11 pm

Thanks for the info Saranac. I'm not going thrusty with my first layout but I definitely plan to add to that later on. I'm planning on working a smidge on the tip heavy side (or just flat even), as I'd heard it could be too light with a balance too far back.

I hadn't thought of the lead melting idea. I like that though, it'd be fairly easy to do as well. Thanks again.

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 8:09 pm

As Saranac said, it is up to individual tastes to some degree. You'll find for thrusting, a pommel heavy sword works pretty well- the center of mass is close to your hand, so you can move the point quickly. For a percussive swing putting the balance point closer to the tip gives you more power. It can make your blows seem faster, since they require less swing to reach the speed necessary for a telling blow. A one pound object has to strike at twice the speed of a two pound object to have the same percieved impact (assuming the decelerations are comparable, which they should be if they're both made of rattan). Because of where the center of mass is, I can kill with a mace from a few inches away, but I need more swing to get the tip of a sword to do the same, even if they weigh the same. A punch with the sword at its balance point will have about the same impact as the mace.

You can make a blade more tip heavy by adding leather, or backpack strapping to the blade near the tip. Some of the Belatrixes do that, and the style they've developed is aided by a more tip heavy blade. There's an article in the Known Worlde Handbook, and a much more recent web site about Paul of Belatrix's fighting style if you're interested.

Be careful with putting lead in your pommel. Make sure it's not going to go flying out and hurt anyone, and double check that it doesn't violate any local rules. Definitely DO NOT put metal of any kind in the striking surface of your sword.
Gaston de Clermont

sedric · Post by **sedric** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 8:28 pm

I like the balance point at around 3" from the cross gaurd too, I shoe-goo a pipe cap (1 1/2" I think) with a hole drilled in the middle of the bottom and a long dry wall screw to help the goo. If you need more weight melt the lead into the cap, not into the rattan. That way when the rattan wears out you can just reuse all the harware on a new stick, and have everything near the same on every one. BTW, A thrusting tip will change the feel of a sword A LOT!

Sixtus_Goetz · Post by **Sixtus_Goetz** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 11:01 pm

Clermont,

As far as i know, it has never voilated any rules < anything in the handle itself >. True as far as striking surface. Oh.. to add to my last post. Tape over the hole where you have melted lead < forgot to add that >. Keeps the lead from flying out < grin >. Aluminium tape is included in the striking edge rule. Had to point that out to my seneshal one time.

Sedric, I use 4oz fishing sinkers, about $.50 each and only need a few Oz in the hilt to make a drastic change in the balance. Thrusty's are grand to have, just don't over-rely on them. They will put 3-5 inches twards the tip in balance depending on materials.

Saranac Goetz

BTW, not attemping to argue. Just making clear what I posted earlier

Hubert · Post by **Hubert** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 12:07 am

Hehe, yeah I'd gathered putting the lead beneath the strapping and duct tape. I really appreciate the help guys. This is really going to help make my life easier as I finish it off.

At the moment, I'm planning on going without a thrusty, both for period reasons, and I'm hoping to get minutely competent before I add another move =), so I'll be going a bit tip heavy I think (or pretty much evenly balanced).

I'd love the link to the Belatrix web site if you could dig it up Clermont.

Thanks again guys.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 12:54 am

I shoot for about 3" infront of the guard as well. I use basket hilts with heavy brass strips added to them with rivets to get just the right balance point (With 1 1/2" rattan shaved to 1 1/4" width, no change on front to back thickness). It is pretty close to optimum for me. Moves fast enough, and I can hit any spot I want.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 3:40 am

About a handspan in front of the guard on singlehanded swords, and up to two handspans for a bastard sword. I haven't made a great in so long that I've forgotten -- and I only ever made one...

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 9:31 pm

Here's the Bellatrix fighting school page:
http://www.bellatrix.org/school/default.htm

Saranac- You were pretty clear to begin with, and I didn't mean to question the use of lead as you suggested. I was mostly concerned about how a really new guy might interpret the statement if he only half read it, particularly in conjunction with my suggestions for shifting weight toward the tip. If he went off thinking "Lead's fine in the pommel, so why not everywhere?" and got himself in trouble, or got someone hurt I'd feel bad.
Gaston

Sixtus_Goetz · Post by **Sixtus_Goetz** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 10:04 pm

Clermont,

Thats cool. Good point. Understand where your comming from.

Saranac Goetz

Hubert · Post by **Hubert** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 11:52 pm

I appreciate the gesture Clermont, though I'm not quite "that" new =), course better safe than sorry. I think I got it now, put lead everywhere!

Thanks a ton for the link and all the help guys. I finally won't have to scrounge for a weapon on Monday night.

[This message has been edited by Coenwalh (edited 12-07-2002).]

Marshal · Post by **Marshal** » Mon Dec 09, 2002 9:48 pm

Do you achieve a better effect with the molten lead? I've always just drilled and then knocked the lead weights in cold...

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Mon Dec 09, 2002 10:28 pm

Coenwalh- Sorry, I can see how my post may have looked like I'd assumed you weren't the sharpest sword in the armoury, which I also didn't mean to imply. This sort of forum is a funny medium since you don't get visual and intonational feedback, and you don't know where your audience's background is, or who's listing in. I guess my aim is to try wrote so painfully clearly that anyone can understand it, and it occasionally sounds like I'm talking to a four year old.

On the subject of lead- you can get all the lead you want for free, at least in the U.S.A. from anyplace that deals with car tires. The little lead balancing weights aren't reusable, and they're toxic, so it costs them money to dispose of them. Places like Walmart are sometimes weird about it for insurance reasons, but most smaller outfits will give you as many weights as you can carry.
Gaston de Clermont

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Mon Dec 09, 2002 11:25 pm

By the way, the best way to find out how much weight you need is to tie a bag on the pommel and add pennies, or whatever until you get the balance you want. If you haven't taped it yet, or are going to put it inside the hilt, you will need to adjust by adding some more, but that you can learn by experience.

Sixtus_Goetz · Post by **Sixtus_Goetz** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:40 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Marshal:
Do you achieve a better effect with the molten lead? I've always just drilled and then knocked the lead weights in cold...</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Had trouble with the rattan trying to split on me. Realy the only reason i went for the molten route.

Saranac Goetz

Edwin · Post by **Edwin** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:29 am

As a new fighter (started training with any intensity less than 3 years ago), I found that having the balance 3 inches from the top of the baskethilt was very intuitive.

I was able to just get out on the field, throw something that new or different, and it just felt right.

I had a thrusting tip off and on for much of that time. Took me a while to make one that stayed on the sword, but it never really affected the balance point.

Hubert · Post by **Hubert** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 3:28 pm

Clermont,

Hehe, oh I know, actually I was laughing when I sent my reply. I never read it as you implying anything. Besides you really can't be too careful, now time to go lop off my fingers with an axe!