use of leafspring

Wilhelm zu Eltz-Kempenich · Sun Nov 24, 2002 11:06 pm

hey! i managed to get my hands on a leafspring, but now im wondering what to do with it! which process do i use, and can i get a step by step process fo doing it? email me: azommin@hotmail.com
i'll be much appreciative. thanks!

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"May the forces of Evil become confused on the way to your house. Just pray they don't have a phone book..."

wags3 · Post by **wags3** » Sun Nov 24, 2002 11:26 pm

Hi,
It all depends on what you want to do. Do you want to make a sword or do you want to make a knife? That will help other folks more knowledgable than I tell you what to do.

wags3

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Mon Nov 25, 2002 9:34 am

And what tools do you have to make it?
Metal is hard stuff; it's not like we could tell you to "soak it in brine for three days or until soft, remove, and use a wooden scraper to shape and remove materiel."

Although sometimes I wish I could...

Also, the THICKNESS of the speing is important. How thick is it? Is it a leafspring from a car, that's about 1/8" thick, or is it the leaf-spring off a backhoe, which is about 3/4" thick. Believe me, it makes all the difference in the world when trying to make a blade out of it!

And finaly, is it straight or bent?

cristofre fortescu · Post by **cristofre fortescu** » Mon Nov 25, 2002 2:41 pm

I have seen patterns to make cross bows out of leaf springs with up to an 800 lb pull. I don't know why you would want an 800 lb pull crossbow but it would be interesting to use the spring to make one;-)

C

Patin Windward · Post by **Patin Windward** » Mon Nov 25, 2002 3:51 pm

I've used thise beforr to make a sword

I made a big fire and straightened it on an anvil.

Wilhelm zu Eltz-Kempenich · Mon Nov 25, 2002 8:54 pm

ok i'll admit, i havent actually got it yet, but i WILL! my friends dad works on mail trucks, so it'll be one of those. so a leafspring off a mail truck...

as for what im making...GOOD QUESTION! a sword would be great, but steve said he can get me a whole BUNCH of leaf springs, so i think i'll start out with a dagger, just as a begining weapon. but i'll findout about the rest of the specs soon, and get u those. thanks for the help so far though!

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"May the forces of Evil become confused on the way to your house. Just pray they don't have a phone book..."

Wilhelm zu Eltz-Kempenich · Mon Nov 25, 2002 8:57 pm

ok, i forgot tools.
i got a shitty grinder, and a basic hammer. but, BUT! if i need more i can. my dad is a building supervisor at a school, so i could get tools there, the guy getting me the stuff has an extensive workshop, and Darivs, the guy i work under was alot of tools, so i could prolly do it. what do i need?

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Mon Nov 25, 2002 9:34 pm

Well, there are a lot of ways to go.

First, I would not recommend starting with a sword or a double edge dagger. Both are a pain to get even. Start with a single edged knife. The leaf springs I've used range from about 1/4 " to about 1 ". If it's thicker and 1/4", your looking at doing some forging. (Not a bad thing, I really like forging.)

For tools, the first thing is to get the spring down to a reasonable size. Bandsaw, gas hatchet, plasma cutter, what ever is handy. If none of those, you can always drill a series of connecting holes and remove the webbing. It's slow, but it works.

For shaping the blade, you can go with any of a number of different grinders, even hand powered ones called files...

After getting it to shape, then I prefinish the blade, it's easier before it's hard. Sand it so that none of the deep scratches remain, I'd probably go to about 220/240 on the first one.

After that is heat treating. That's a long post in itself. Let's get ya to that point first.

Yer up near the Twin Cities, right? I know that there are a number of bladesmiths up there, ya might wanna give one a holler and see if you could stop in their shop for a day. Looks like yer about 5 hours or so away from me.

This is a very brief outline, let us know what ya want and what ya want to do for sure, we'll get ya started.

Jamie

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Jamie
jamie@polarbearforge.com
Polar Bear Forge - Custom knives

Guillaume2 · Post by **Guillaume2** » Mon Nov 25, 2002 11:00 pm

For dagger i like to use old file,they are neer the size you want and the steel is usually 1095,wich is pretty good for knife/sword

oh,and they even have a start of a tang to put the grip on,i love them;P

Bohamand · Post by **Bohamand** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 9:40 am

Hay Christofre Fortescu Where did you see the cross bows. I might like to buld one.
NOT 800lbs pull but somthing.

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:22 pm

I've often wondered.... WOULD a truck spring crossbow be able to put a chunk of 1/2 inch rebar through an engine block?

Michael B · Post by **Michael B** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 4:09 pm

A range of sources of comments and instructions can be found by searching www.google.com for:

swords "leaf springs"

See eg. http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~jasen01/armoury/warswords.htm

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 8:21 pm

Michael B, I've seen that link before, and it makes me shutter each time I've seen it.

I would not recommend cold forging a leaf spring like that link suggests. It is a big waste of time, is dangerous, and could damage the tools, the person, and the steel. It's not worth it. Heat steel up when forging.

Files are good too. Like Guillaume2 stated, the most are about 1095, some of the older ones being W1. Ya gotta be picky though, some of the new ones are case hardened, they only have a hardened skin.

Jamie

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Jamie
jamie@polarbearforge.com
Polar Bear Forge - Custom knives

Wilhelm zu Eltz-Kempenich · Tue Nov 26, 2002 8:56 pm

OK, for a sake of argument, lets say i'll need to forge it. what do i do? would this be for the sole reason of straitening it out, or am i some how shaping it this way?
but so far, thanks for the help! i just havent had my fill of info. yet! OH! and doing the tang too! how would i do that if i want to leather wind it? and what kind of steel, and form where, would i use for the pommel and cross hilt if i was doing a sword?

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"May the forces of Evil become confused on the way to your house. Just pray they don't have a phone book..."

Michael B · Post by **Michael B** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 9:00 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by polarbearforge:
Michael B, I've seen that link before, and it makes me shutter each time I've seen it. [snip]
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair enough

Still, there's plenty more info from the Google search I recommended.

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 11:12 pm

A forge can do a number of things in a project like this. It can be used to straighten the metal, shape it, and heat treat it.

Leather wound handles. Most of the time you do a partial tang with a strong wooden handle. I've seen oak used a lot. Then you wrap the wood with the leather.

Pommel and cross hilt can be about any metal, steel, brass, bronze, what ever is available.

Michael B, I didn't mean to discount the credibility of the link, however it is a good reminder that not all information on the internet is completely accurate. The rest of the document has some good information in it, it's just that first part that gets me. The google search you listed does yield a lot of good hits.

Jamie

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Jamie
jamie@polarbearforge.com
Polar Bear Forge - Custom knives

adric · Post by **adric** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 12:18 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by christofre fortescu:
I have seen patterns to make cross bows out of leaf springs with up to an 800 lb pull. I don't know why you would want an 800 lb pull crossbow but it would be interesting to use the spring to make one;-)

C<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nebraska changed their hunting laws so you didn't have to be handicapped to use a cross bow during bow season. BUT you had to have a 300# pull bow in order to not be handicapped and use the crossbow. Since no one commercially made a crossbow of that size they made the law non-discriminatory but still discriminatory.
We decided to make a crossbow that would pass the # limit and used a leaf spring.

The first piece of wood "arrow" that went into the cross bow was snapped in several pieces upon test firing. It left a large welt blood bruise thing on the very large guy who volunteered to try it. On the next test fire we used a D2 drill bit blank, 3/8 size and about 18" long. It was accidentally shot through the roof of the shop and never seen again while trying to get the cross bow out of the vise. It took 4 big guys to get it cocked using levers and a vise to hold it. Incidental the shop roof is old wood slatts, shingles, then a layer if 3/4 ply wood, shingles, and finally corrugated steel. It went through all 5. On the 3 rd test cocking it ate itself and threw the retaining ring into the wall. It sounds like a good idea until some one decides to make it. The whole deal goes down hill quickly from there. I have proof that there is a God for the simple fact that no one was killed that day.

I need to read the thread next time!

I have no doubt that a leaf spring cross bow would easily "chuck" a bit of rebar through an engine block. Might even be able to do it while the engine is still installed in the vehicle (in one fender and out on the other side?!) My 44 mag will pierce an engine block and has no where near the mass of a cross bow bolt.

[This message has been edited by adric (edited 11-26-2002).]

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 8:48 am

Adric,

You're experiences are the very nightmare images my mind has conjured to prevent me from trying such a silly endeavor. But it would be cool to watch the video tape.

Wilhelm zu Eltz-Kempenich · Wed Nov 27, 2002 5:01 pm

heh, im glad i wasnt there! id prolly friggin die! but i too have been pondering making a crossbow at some time. Master Suleski is very skilled at maknig such, and im thinking of doing it. he says i can prolly do it in a few day, which is always cool. but i think im going to try doing the blade thing first.

But back to smithing: how do you shape it by smithing? well shoot, anyone have a website that can explain the process to me? Jamie, do you perhaps have that on your webite? Im curious as to how each step is done, so i can determine if its possible for myself to do, or if i'll be requiring help.

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 9:42 pm

I would have liked to have seen that crossbow, on the tv that is. Yikes, I'm glad nobody got badly hurt.

There aren't any sites that I can think of off hand that describes exactly how to forge. It's really hard to describe. What I normally do when I'm showing people who want to try, is for me to forge a piece out, talking about how stuff moves and showing it. Then I give them a piece to hammer to see how it moves. Then the next piece I have them actually forge into a blade.

Jamie

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Jamie
jamie@polarbearforge.com
Polar Bear Forge - Custom knives

adric · Post by **adric** » Thu Nov 28, 2002 12:45 am

This is a bad idea but if you want more info here goes-
If your spring has a hole in the center to mount it to the truck as our had life is kinda easy. Cause you know where the center is. Measure from the center out each lame so you know where to cut and get the tabs to hold the string in place. We decided against forging as then you have to re heat treat and temper etc. so it was cut down with a hack saw and side angle grindered the tabs. convient hole allowed for easy bolt up to the stock. I cant imagine not having a hole if only for the sheer ease of it all. so if you want to go with a period mount up have at it. but a hole and a lag bolt were the way to for us. if you make the stock out of wood (we did) reinforce it with steel to hold the cocking mech. securly in place (we didn't) and that should keep it from eating itself (ours did). The bow string was waxed linen and i made it myself. it held up beter than the wood but we only manged 3 cockings so milage will vary.
The tabs on the bow were shallow and unbent but the total pull was only like 3.5 inches. i dont know the specific pull #s of the finished product but to get it cocked it was locked in the vise. one guy per lame pushed back on them, one guy (get the biggest guy you know for this job, 6'5" 375#

)to pull back on the string using a hook to straddle the stock, and one guy with a lever to stand on the bench and help the big guy get the string in place.
It doesn't help but we also had a guy there standing around telling us how stupid we were for this whole endevor. you don't plan on this guy (we didn't) but he seems to show up (God looking out for stupid people?) anyway.
If i can find the picture i'll see if i can find some one willing to post it for me. It is not very remarkable as it looks like a cross bow hanging on a wall but you can get a feel for the pull and very nice hand carved stock (slighlty f-ed up due to opps factor).
if some one makes one let us all know how yours went. thats my story! if only id known Jackass would be such a hit we could have filmed a segment! oh well - have fun!

Raibeart Lok De la Haye · Fri Nov 29, 2002 11:41 pm

Use it for your car or truck, and buy new, factory direct spring steel for your blades.

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Sat Nov 30, 2002 9:53 am

I almost agree with Raibeart. If you're going to make knives to sell to others, buy new stuff. If you're just learning, stick with used. I have a lot of used leaf/coil springs that I use to test design ideas. It cost me close to nothing for the steel. This way I can test designs without spending a lot of money, or feeling bad if the design doesn't work and I trash it.

Jamie

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Jamie
jamie@polarbearforge.com
Polar Bear Forge - Custom knives

Wilhelm zu Eltz-Kempenich · Sat Nov 30, 2002 3:56 pm

yeah, see im just learning, however the steel im getting is free, so even if it is really good, or bad as far as that goes, its free. acording to Steve, he can get me a whole load of them if i really want. but shoot, i nned to get it first! when i get it, then i'll have more questions! but lets pretend i have it now.

what do i wanna do first, and how?

Raibeart Lok De la Haye · Sun Dec 08, 2002 9:35 pm

Hi guy's.
I don't want to start a flame, and I know what it's like to be up against the wall for materials, BUT we all know darn good and well that 'used', 5160 off of auto's or machinery have hair-line stress fractures. Especially after straightening for blades. I have no solid proof, except my own suspicious nature, but I only use leaf spring's in damascus billet's that I'm going to fold and thus re-anneal, re-harden, and re-temper, thus (theoretically) re-grain structureing. Stock removal of a junk-yard leaf spring sort of scares me. I ain't trying to be the new "guru", Jock's got that position, and I want him to keep it. Just think about it, and who will be using the blade, and will it fail?

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Sun Dec 08, 2002 9:59 pm

Lol

the cross bow story is great.
I tested some lawn mower blades for a cross bow they appeared like they would work. The string was to be stainless steel cable.

The Gods of the shop kept telling me to stop so I did. It sets in a pile of pieces now.

Be safe think smart live to play another day.

Hal.

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Mon Dec 09, 2002 9:23 pm

I'm going to fan the flames a bit, but hopefully not out of control. I agree that stock removal on a leaf spring isn't ideal, but then again I think every knife that can be forged should be forged. I've spoken with azommin about this, and it doesn't seem to be an option right now.

Hair line cracks and refining the grain size are two different things. Refining the grain size can be done on any blade, whether it's stock removal or forged. It should be done whether it's a leaf spring or steel bought from the mill. It's part of the heat treatment that is the soul of a knife, it determines whether it's a knife or a knife shaped club. Annealing and normalizing should be done on anyways.

I've used a lot of springs, and have only had two fail. I tracked it down to a heat treat problem, not a problem with the spring. The first one was too cold, and crumbled while forging, and the second was during quench where the steel was too hot. Are there micro fractures on used springs? Probably. Are they a problem? Possibly. Here's my take on them. I would avoid springs with really deep, visible cracks, but none of the springs I've ever used have been broken either. If the fracture doesn't have exposure to air, then there is no oxide layer to form and it's kinda in it's own vacuum pocket. Steel will weld without any flux and at a lower temperature in a vacuum, so many of these smaller fractures are probably rewelded and no harm done. Based on my experiences and observations, that's what it seems to be.

When I'm either selling or making a knife for a customer, I let them know if it's comes from a leaf spring or other recycled source. If they was new steel, no problem. Either way, I guarantee my knives to be free of defects as long as I can make knives. I haven't had a single one fail.

I guess my main point is that heat treatment is the most vital part of the process. Heat treating azommin's is going to be fun for him. Since it isn't forged, I wouldn't do less than an anneal and three normalizations. (This goes back to stock removal not being ideal, but still doable.)

Jamie

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Jamie
jamie@polarbearforge.com
Polar Bear Forge - Custom knives

Raibeart Lok De la Haye · Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:19 am

Well spoken. I agree mostly. that's not flame, that common since.

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:20 am

So is forging the best way to make a sword?
I had a grand idea I could make a sword.
I ground for weeks on it. It came out bad.
Just another sword shaped object. I can get my propane and fire brick forge hot enough to make steel bright orange. Would that work better?

Raibeart Lok De la Haye · Tue Dec 10, 2002 9:00 pm

On my gas forge I had from NC, I plugged up the back door, (no pun intended) Ha! Then I reamed out the "injectors". Using about 17-20 lbs, I can get welding temp in about half hour. And yes, in my opinion forgeing beats stock removal hands down..

Wilhelm zu Eltz-Kempenich · Tue Dec 10, 2002 9:25 pm

WOW! good to know! but hey, i got this to ask, and i need opinions.

can i use an oxycetlyene torch to heat up the spring, and hammer it flat? or how you you recomend flattening it? as well as thinning it, cuz i realized, that the edges are about a .25". it gets thicker, and gets close to 1/2".

Raibeart Lok De la Haye · Wed Dec 11, 2002 4:16 am

Bro.

Your going to have too at least make a wheel drum coal forge to handle that much straightening, normalizing etc.

www.admiralsteel.com

Just break down, and buy you a 3/16 X 1 3/4" in 1084-1095 flat bar, and forge the edge, and fuller, and take away the work for nothing principle?

there are lots of plans for do it yourself forges on envilfire.

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 8:12 am

Raibeart, I'm glad I didn't fan flames. I suspect that we agree about the heat treating portion being important and what not. That's cool. If we all agreed on all topics, it wouldn't be quite as much fun...

Which forge do ya have? Is it the whisper momma with the venturi? Those are great little forges, they just don't get hot enough, soon enough for me. I built mine, and on 7 1/2 pound of pressure, I reach welding heat in about 12 minutes and if I let it keep going I've accidently melted steel.

Halberds, yes, I do think that forging is the best way to make swords. Non forged swords have been made, and there's nothing wrong with them, it's just more work. I've seen some swords made from some of the new super alloys, and they aren't all that forge friendly.

azommin, Raibeart is completely right on the last post, you'll need a forge now. With that portion of the leaf spring, not even thinking about heat treating, you'll need a forge. I've done crazy things before, but grinding down a 1/2 inch leaf spring to about 1/4 inch isn't on that list. That must be the bottom most layer of a leaf spring, the rest are closer to the same thickness throughout.

Here are some of the links he's referring to, for coal:
http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/forges/brkdrum1.htm
and for gas, go to http://www.reil1.net/ or http://www.flash.net/~dwwilson/forge/fgpl.html or http://www.geocities.com/zoellerforge/sidearm.html

Jamie

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Jamie
jamie@polarbearforge.com
Polar Bear Forge - Custom knives

Raibeart Lok De la Haye · Wed Dec 11, 2002 5:20 pm

You know? I've had it about five years now, and I can't remember which model it is? Whisper momma, Shouting Daddy, Angry Cousin? I've had to re-re-re-re-re pack, the refractory, and re--------K-wool the doors. My flux is a little acidic. I like it, but only for short blade stock. I use the coal forge for everything else. I also am building a long gas sword forge, (six burner) to be used on the longer billets, and heat treat. I'll get a real web site someday.

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House Wuffingas, The Sons of the Wolf.

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 9:18 pm

I lost count a long time ago how many times I've redone the floor of my main forge. I use segments of a kiln shelf, once there's more flux than shelf, I take it out, throw it away, and put in a new piece.

Six burner? Wow. How long are ya planning on making it?

Jamie

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Jamie
jamie@polarbearforge.com
Polar Bear Forge - Custom knives