Full suit of stainless and trimed

AB Hammer · Post by **AB Hammer** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 9:39 am

Just finished this suite about 2 weeks ago, (Stainless and Brassed).
13 ga. stainless helm built from 2 sides fully hand dished.
The rest of the suit is 18 ga. and 16 ga. stainless, with 18 ga. brass trim.

Front

http://www.creative-net.net/~armour/fullntrim005.JPG

Back

http://www.creative-net.net/~armour/fullntrim003.JPG

Diferent Visor

http://www.creative-net.net/~armour/fullntrim002.JPG

Still in the middle of moving
ABHAMMER

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 10:18 am

looks really nice...

you went through a lotta brass there bud!

JGraham · Post by **JGraham** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 12:47 pm

Looks sharp! Nice looking harness.

Those aren't modern elastic kneepads underneath those beautiful leg harnesses, are they?

Jim

DanNV · Post by **DanNV** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:45 pm

Looks really nice. My only quibbles are wit the elbows not being deep enough and the deep point on the breast plate is too high and too shallow (common problem with Churburg breast plates.)

Dan

Samuel · Post by **Samuel** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 5:37 pm

Per the Churburg re-make. I made one with the proper globular effect and it didnt meet SCA standards of protection ( I had to wear a kidney bely under my gambison). the period effect causes the kidneys to be exposed to shots and considering most who have made or plan on using this type of breast play SCA in them not meeting the rules for the sake of authenticity seems a bit trivial. the same effect is had with the longer less deeply dished type prevalent within the SCA.

Having learned that the hard way I see nothing wrong with increasing the length of the churburg. Figure it was more a fashion to have it shorter in period than a military nessessity, so it stands to reason to make it longer to meet the required protection and forsake the fashionable wasp waisted look.

Awesome harness...btw.

even though I hate stainless I think its a testament to hammering skill seeing work done in it with nice rounded shape. I feel for your tools:-)

DanNV · Post by **DanNV** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:03 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Having learned that the hard way I see nothing wrong with increasing the length of the churburg.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't commenting on the length, I was commenting that the deep part of the dish was too high. The deepest part is not in the center top to bottom. Look at a pic of the real thing from the side and you'll see what I mean.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Figure it was more a fashion to have it shorter in period than a military nessessity, so it stands to reason to make it longer to meet the required protection and forsake the fashionable wasp waisted look.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The shorter length isn't fashion, it's what lets you bend in it without having it bruise your hips. The globose shape is fashion, and if you're not going to make it look right, why make it at all?

Also, unless your kidneys are lower than they are supposed to be, the standard wrap around plates should cover them, although many marshals seem to think your kidneys are about the top of the pelvis. With one of these, I usually recommend hiding a back plate under the gambeson for spine protection and so on, so I'm not worried about it actually providing the kidney protection.

Dan

AB Hammer · Post by **AB Hammer** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 7:36 pm

JGraham
Those knee pads are the wearers falt, it was at a fighter practice.

DanNV
The elbows passed the marshall inspection, they are lower profile design though.

The Churburg chest was originly made for someone about 150 lbs with a small waist.
The person I built this one for is about 240 lbs, no small waist and longer bodied.
To build one to look like history for someone that big would have been very uncomfortable because
it would have cut in at the waist and the upper chest.

As in history, we build for the wearers we deal with.

ABHAMMER

Gordon the Grey · Post by **Gordon the Grey** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 7:43 pm

Although not my favourite type of armour, I think you did a great job on that suit. Even like the bar grill. Lots and lots of brass trim. Very Good Work

Dragos · Post by **Dragos** » Tue Jun 26, 2001 5:56 am

Looks awesome, I wish more and more people would try to look at least a 1/4 as good. Then groups like the SCA would get a better rep. for historic reproduction.

Dragos

white mountain armoury · Tue Jun 26, 2001 7:13 am

nice work Alan, personally i dont mind the breast plate shape, we only have one example of a breast like that (that i know of), and we have no way of knowing if there were more.
but if they were i doubt they would all look the same. Ice seen some breast plates built in the churburg style that have a diff shape, but are still very convincing, unfourtuntly there are some hideous breasts modled after this piece as well. yours looks nice.

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Tue Jun 26, 2001 7:58 am

Alan does great work, for sure. I saw this at his house just before completion.

I'm afraid I don't understand the aversion to stainless. To the best of my knowledge, they didn't have cold-rolled steel either. If you aren't going to pound out your plate from a lump of iron with water hammers, what difference does it make? And the same people who complain about stainless use galvanized maille for the same reasons.

------------------
Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Tue Jun 26, 2001 10:48 am

On the stainless thing. Mild steel cold or hot rolled is closer by far to being historically accurate. Stainless is a different color and is much further from something that would be accurate then mild. Plus mild steel rusts which provides a more historicall armour owning experience then the stainless. But no mild isn't accurate either.

DanV is absolutly correct. Breastplates were made to come to just below the bottom of the ribs (or a few inches above the waist

) to allow for a wider range of movement at the waist. Also why faulds were developed and why maille was worn under 14th century cuirasses.

But yeah it doesn't work by itself for SCA if done accurately.

Once again Abhammer great work.

------------------
The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

DanNV · Post by **DanNV** » Tue Jun 26, 2001 1:20 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ABHAMMER:
DanNV
The elbows passed the marshall inspection, they are lower profile design though.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course they passed. They cover everything they have to. However, they are still too shallow. The shallow design lets the cop bottom out on the elbow when the wearer bends his arm which pulls the vambrace up. Also, when the elbow bottoms on the cop, a blow to the cop will transfer the force of the blow right to the point of the elbow with only 1/4" padding to protect it. The deeper elbows prevent that from happening and allow the arm harness to bend without shifting. Deeper cops also allow a strap through the middle of the joint which helps keep the cop from floating away when the arm is straightened.

Dan

AB Hammer · Post by **AB Hammer** » Tue Jun 26, 2001 1:40 pm

DanNV

No thats not a problem eather, it has plenty of room in the cop.
Without padding of any kind, you cant tuch you elbow to the cop.
I think your looking at an optical illusion the brass may be the cause.

ABHAMMER

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Tue Jun 26, 2001 2:58 pm

looks beautiful!

I would like to see some close-ups of the arms and legs!

Steve

Samuel · Post by **Samuel** » Wed Jun 27, 2001 2:46 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by DanNV:
 The shorter length isn't fashion, it's what lets you bend in it without having it bruise your hips. The globose shape is fashion, and if you're not going to make it look right, why make it at all?

Also, unless your kidneys are lower than they are supposed to be, the standard wrap around plates should cover them, although many marshals seem to think your kidneys are about the top of the pelvis. With one of these, I usually recommend hiding a back plate under the gambeson for spine protection and so on, so I'm not worried about it actually providing the kidney protection.
I wasn't commenting on the length, I was commenting that the deep part of the dish was too high. The deepest part is not in the center top to bottom. Look at a pic of the real thing from the side and you'll see what I mean.
Dan<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you mean this?http://www.geocities.com/area51/rampart/8771/SideviewofChur9segcuirass.jpg

I had to dig up all the links on this but cant find the e-mail I got from Hudd De peth who lives in England and has actually seen the current setup with the mail shirt and the Breast displayed... unless the mail shirt was ment to touch the wearers shoes and if so the wearer only had 1/4 of his hieght devoted to torso this harness fits right to the bottom of the short ribs. since the kidneys are between the short ribs and hips in the back this body taken off the shelf wouldnt work for much anyone over 4 foot tall........

I guess you could argue 4 foot was the average hieght now :-)

BTW in all the looking at this photo, others versions of the body, and farting around with this pattern for months. the degree of globose isnt much more than what most re-creation armorers put in thier work.... its centered on most re-created harness and not put at the belly... IMO not a great enough change to be out-of period...

the Term discribing much 14th cent body armor is Wasp waisted. this means the globular body is kept higher than the waist line to give the impression of a slender, fit figure. which considering this is about the time Cothardies came into use makes a lot of sense... David Edge talks about it breifly in the A&E video "Arms and Armor"
much of what he says is armor mimiced fashion in great detail..... hmmmm