If you were to design a swage block.....

Loren Patterson · Post by **Loren Patterson** » Wed Jun 27, 2001 11:00 am

If you had the opportunity to design a swage block with deep bowl forms for elbow and knee cops, and maybe small helm parts.. what sizes would you want and how deep?

- Loren

jgalak · Post by **jgalak** » Wed Jun 27, 2001 1:10 pm

Being very new to this, I can't answer your question, but I know that I'd love to see more armorer-specific swedge blocks out there. If you are planning on making some and selling them, I'd be very interested.

Ironmonger sells one, so you may want to see what size he has and make sizes other than those, so as to complement his.

Of course if this is just for personal use, never mind.

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Yehuda ben Moshe
mka Juliean Galak

James C · Post by **James C** » Wed Jun 27, 2001 1:29 pm

i would like a 6 1/2 inch across depression set on a 15 inch radius, 5 inch across depression set on a 13 - 13 1/2 inch radius and a 4 inch across depression set on a 11 or 12 inch radius. A "V" shaped depression 6 inches long and 1/4 inch across and 3/16 ths inch deep. a hardie hole. uhm.. that is all i can think of right now. i will post more when i can think better

Loren Patterson · Post by **Loren Patterson** » Wed Jun 27, 2001 1:37 pm

What do you mean by a 15inch radius?

Loren Patterson · Post by **Loren Patterson** » Wed Jun 27, 2001 1:46 pm

here's my alterior motive..
I'm talking to foundrys trying to get a quote on casting me a swage block.. I dont have any other shaping forms yet.. but I want something good for elbows, knees, and great helm tops.. and I need to send him some dimensions.. so I was hoping for some ideas.. specifically on the bowl forms.. also.. I might be able to make them make me a few and I'd give them away for what I pay plus shipping because I like to help fellow armourers... and I need these dimensions quick... anyway.. thanks so far...
- Loren

Clay · Post by **Clay** » Wed Jun 27, 2001 2:08 pm

I think I would find the most use in the following bowl sizes:

4" across by 1" deep
3" across by 3/4" deep
2" across by 1/2" deep
6" across by 1/2" deep

Maybe another bowl about 4" or 6" across but 2" deep or so.

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I'm not being mean, I'm just telling you how it is.
Salinas Swordsman
Darkmoor Armoury (closed until June 25, 2001)

James C · Post by **James C** » Wed Jun 27, 2001 2:10 pm

15 inch radius means that a 30 inch diameter ball would sit perfectly inside of the depression. the 5 1/2 inch depression is perfect for making adult helm halves because it planishes as you dish. the 13 - 13 1/2 is perfect for child helms and the 12 is for deep elbow/knee cops. if you take it to a metal shop and ask for a bowl set on a 15 inch radius then they would know exactly what you want.

Loren Patterson · Post by **Loren Patterson** » Wed Jun 27, 2001 2:32 pm

James C, so its just a more technical way of saying something like x inches across and x inches deep? I see.. thanks guys..

what about the dimensions for a vambrace form? how wide at the widest and how deep? how wide at the least widest?

- Loren

James C · Post by **James C** » Wed Jun 27, 2001 2:42 pm

yeah basically it is just a technical way of saying x across and y deep. About the vambrace form i would say 3 inches across at the smallest and 6 1/2 at the largest and about 9 inches long. as for deep i would say 1.5 inch deep with going down to about 4 inches. if you get one of these made i would kill for one

.
oh and to put it into comparison for you the 15 inch radius comes out to being about 1/4 inch deep.

Loren Patterson · Post by **Loren Patterson** » Wed Jun 27, 2001 3:09 pm

Thanks for being so helpful James.. you mean that it would be 4 inches deep at the wide end?

James C · Post by **James C** » Wed Jun 27, 2001 3:14 pm

yes 4 inches deep at the wide end.. but that is just my un-educated guess. seeing that i have not ever used a vambrace form. maybe someone else will shed more light on vambrace forms.

Brandr hinn Rusli · Post by **Brandr hinn Rusli** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 8:17 am

What weight range are you thinking of getting?
What material?
My suggestion to you is that if you are dealing with this foundry in a professional capacity (They aren't a friend of a friend type thing). Then get together a set of blueprints or at least a dimensioned drawing showing what you want.

Will you be getting them straight from the foundry with just the sprues and trees knocked off? or will it be cleaned up?

I am tentatively interested. (Just a matter of how bad shipping it to Canada would be, assuming I can't pick it up somewhere like Pennsic).

Brandr hinn Rusli

Loren Patterson · Post by **Loren Patterson** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 8:55 am

I told the rep from the foundry that I was willing to do some finish grinding to save cost... I'm in Olympia, Washington, and this foundry is just north near the border..

I dont know the weight range.. the rep will tell me what it turns out to be.. the material will probably be regular cast iron.. I have sent them some dimentional specs and the representative will be emailing me with some suggestions and some quotes. I have to go to work, I'll add to this later this morning... I have more to say.

- Loren

Krag · Post by **Krag** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 9:19 am

15" radius for helms, 12" for deep elbows!? Is this for Paul Bunyan? I use about an 11-15" diameter for spangen panels and 5-6" diameter for knees. Granted, I "undish" sections of the spangen panels when fitting them, but a 15" radius of curvature sounds a bit flat. Sounds good for doing the tight sections breastplates and such, though. A 12" radius for knees and elbows...how are you getting the finished product (deep elbow) to about a 4" diameter curve using a depression with a 24" diameter curve?

Funny this topic should come up! I just got some blocks of W-1 tool steel that I'll be making several stakes/swages from. Most of it will be channels, grooves, rivet head forms (decorative) and other small depressions. I'll be using a mill and a turntable to put various curved grooves for finishing edge rolls on different pieces. I'll also be doing the same with standard endmills to make square edged "U" channels for embosswork/repousse. I have some 3/4" x 4" x 5" I'll be making a small anvil from as well (welding to a 3" x 4" x 5" block of mild steel). This will be welded to a 3/4" mild steel plate and bolted to a stump and used on the back patio.

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Krag von Berghen
KragAxe Armoury

Member's Pics

James C · Post by **James C** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 9:48 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Krag:
15" radius for helms, 12" for deep elbows!? Is this for Paul Bunyan? I use about an 11-15" diameter for spangen panels and 5-6" diameter for knees. Granted, I "undish" sections of the spangen panels when fitting them, but a 15" radius of curvature sounds a bit flat. Sounds good for doing the tight sections breastplates and such, though. A 12" radius for knees and elbows...how are you getting the finished product (deep elbow) to about a 4" diameter curve using a depression with a 24" diameter curve?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok.. no-one else was saying anything so i spoke up and told him the things i use.
the 5 1/2 on 15" radius makes a curve for a 15" plate to form a curve to make a helm half to fit a person with a 24" head with 1/4" or slightly more of padding. as for the elbow/knee cops, i use a custom made rawhide deadblow hammer with a small head and turn the piece until it gets how i want it. it works for me and my patterns that is all i can say.

Armouring is not a science, it's a best guess and personal prefrence put together with artistic ablility. just because you have never used something don't automatically assume it will not work.

Loren Patterson · Post by **Loren Patterson** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 10:00 am

Krag, why do you prefer the smaller sized dish shape for the elbows/knees? what is the width of the dish shape?
- Loren

Krag · Post by **Krag** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 1:42 pm

I use a stump with big rotting cracks in it right now...so any shape would probably be an improvement!
The original depressions I made were a 6" across, ~12" diameter curvature for helm pieces. After dishing and forming to the curve of the depression, I can planish it over a spun top (they're good for some things!). I use to use this form for all pieces, just changing hammers for different shapes. Making a smaller curvature piece on the large depression tended to make an "orangepeel" look that was a pain to planish out. I now use two more depressions, one at about 8" diameter and one at about 5 1/2" (the shotput fits perfect in it). I start on the larger ones and work down to the smaller for deep dished parts.
I need a lot less planish work if the piece fits smoothly in the form. It also helps in making symmetric parts...you can slide it around in the form and see where flat parts and such are. For me, it just seems like less work having forms that more closely fit the final shape of the product.

If you're going to have a swage cast...the whole point of a swage block is to have a rigid form to perfectly shape an object in. If I were going to have one cast, I'd make a mold of a simmons knee and elbow cop and have that cast!

Oh yeah...has anyone here ever built a cupola furnace? That's the next big smithing project I have in mind...after I get a permanet job!

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Krag von Berghen
KragAxe Armoury

Member's Pics

[This message has been edited by Krag (edited 06-28-2001).]

James C · Post by **James C** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 2:17 pm

Hopefully i did not sound like a jackass in the above... but that is over with, so now on to more important stuff. The best thing about a block is that you do not have to planish no where near as much. i like to work with very smooth round shallow curves because it seems to yield the best quality for me. i am probably different than most on here. it can take me anywhere from 45 min to an hour to dish out a knee cop and about twice as long for a helm. i have this anal-retentive perfectionist thing going with armour.(and only armour

) oh yeah and i learned how to dish by dishing out a deep shield boss in a 6" by 1/2" deep depression in a stump. that might explain some things...

Loren Patterson · Post by **Loren Patterson** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 2:20 pm

ok Krag, be definite here.. what is your suggestion bowl sizes if one wants a good block for elbows and knees.. specifics.

oh, by the way Krag.. how've you been? how did whatever the hell we were talking about go? (quite a while ago)

- Loren

Loren Patterson · Post by **Loren Patterson** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 2:22 pm

James C, I like your ideas too, because I already have an old oxygen cylinder that i cleaned and polished, and it's definitely big and shallow.. how would I form a simple elbow cop then? striking at an angle and starting from the outside going in a circle until it really starts to buckle into a deep cop?
- Loren

James C · Post by **James C** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 2:31 pm

Start on the outside edge and work to the middle in spiraling circles. A smaller spiral makes a deeper bowl, a large spiral makes a shallow bowl.

Krag · Post by **Krag** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 4:08 pm

Didn't I send you some patterns...or was going to and forgot...or something like that!? My mind's one big brainfart right now!

Actually, I was quite serious about the mold! For just plain depressions, I'd go with four. A wide shallow one, about 6" across, 10-12" radius of curvature; 6" across, 6" radius of curvature; 5" across, 4" radius of curvature; 4" , 2.5" radius of curvature.

With these four, I could do everything from elbows to peascods and everything inbetween. I would round the edges over as well around the depression.

Your style may be different, though. Like James pointed out, everybody does it a bit different. You might want to mess with some stumps to find what works for you before you pay someone to cast something.

James,
No, I didn't think you were a jack ass. I never said it wouldn't work...I just asked how you got it to work. In fact, I've done tight curves on wide forms holding the piece against the side of the form and striking down in the spiral pattern you mention. I seemed to have been putting much more work into it than I was getting out of it. For me, the smaller ones work better.

Of course, the cracks in mine are wide enought to lose tooling now! But, they just cut down a huge oak tree in our apt complex.

Edric,
if you need a stump, there are several there.

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Krag von Berghen
KragAxe Armoury

Member's Pics

[This message has been edited by Krag (edited 06-28-2001).]

Loren Patterson · Post by **Loren Patterson** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 4:55 pm

Krag.. was i talking to you about making the steel flanged mace.. the halberd.. or how you make axes? I think it was the axes.. anyway..

Thanks for the help from everyone so far.. I like the idea of using a stump first... luckily I have three small stumps, about 2 feet tall and 18inches diameter of black walnut.. no cracks either and they have been dry for years.. if i can make a deal with a foundry for custom swage blocks.. who would want one? I'd let you have it for the price they charge me plus shipping.. I wont tack on any price...

- Loren

Rainald · Post by **Rainald** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 6:25 pm

Here is what I have for a swage block. First shot is just the block:

http://www.geocities.com/rainaldk/swage.jpg

Second shot is the swage with some of the different hamemade stake for it:

http://www.geocities.com/rainaldk/swage2.jpg

Might have to put a ? at the end of the URL to see the pics.

Sasha · Post by **Sasha** » Thu Jun 28, 2001 8:13 pm

Hi Loren.

I mihgt be arriving late to this conversation but I will throw in my ten cents worth (only 5.3cents U.S)

I think just having round dishing forms in a cast steel swage block is a huge waste of swage block!

If I was going for an armouring specific swage it would have a wedge shaped dish, a couple of sizes and depths of egg shaped dishes (and one sink).
It would probably have a lozenge shaped sink (great for wedge topped great helms).

I would line the edges of the swage with usefull shapes like Vambrace curves and the calf-shaped form for roughing out greaves. I would have the full set rollers (round bottom grooves. Imagine taking 20 pieces of barstock in progressively larger sizes and half burying them in plasticine. The lines/impressions you would be left with are great for beggining edge rolls and making chenier).

I would also tuck a full set of hemishperic dishes into any available nook and cranny of the surface. (These are not immediately usefull unless you are doing fiinely decorated work...but you will have the space and you will appreciate it when your armouring gets to that point)

while you are there, you can probably get a collection of rivet-set shapes put in near the corners of the swage (more room to work). These would change the shape of the rivet heads from just hemispherical (which you can have, of course, by keeping a hemispherical rivet set) to square/stud, conical, whatever...

Oh yeah...at least one of the edges should contain a surface like a foldback stake. This gives you those wonderful milanese curves that flare back on themselves (also used in gothic)

Those are my suggestion for what a swage block should have in addition to about three round dishing bowls of various depths. Make sure the sides on those flow smoothly and gracefully into the block's surface or you will get crease lines in your work. Don't worry too much about a dish deep enough to do shield bosses (unless you plan to turn out hundreds). Bosses are just as well turned out in a sink, and you should have at least to diameters of sink in either the swage block or as seperate tools.
----------

Since smithing tends to only use the word "sinking" and the term "dishing" seems to be an SCA type artefact...
I use the folowing distinctions for armouring.

Definitions :
Dish : A depression in any material which allows steel to be domed inwards and which provides a supported base or form.

Sink : A bottomless dish. Something that provides the edge shape to support the steel, and has a space beneath that edge for the steel to be worked into, but which has no base or form to "cup" the steel as it is hammered inwards.

Sasha

Brandr hinn Rusli · Post by **Brandr hinn Rusli** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 7:49 am

Here is a swage block that I was considering.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1249628986

This one is more for utensil making but gives you an idea of weight, size and price.

Do people think a double sided swage would me more useful or stick with a single sided?

Brandr hinn Rusli

Loren Patterson · Post by **Loren Patterson** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 8:35 am

Sasha, you should make a nice blueprint!

I guess i was trying to keep the block simple to maybe cut down on price.. because I need to learn how to just dish an elbow and so the other stuff isn't #1 on my list.. but I'm sure i would find it useful someday, so maybe i should rethink this..

- Loren

Sasha · Post by **Sasha** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 2:53 pm

The ffoundery charges you for the time and materials of a pour.
If you want a two hundred pound block of steel with one shallow depression....it will cost not much different to a very versatile and complex swage for.

Basically, you hand them the wooden form and they press it into the sand and pour the steel.

I would happily help you design a swage (lug mounted, for preference), as I have been thinking along these lines for a while now myself. If on the otherhand you decide that a couple of simple dishing forms are all that you need, it is much MUCH simpler and cheaper to just get me or someone here more local to you to build and ship you one or two or more steel dishing bowls that we make (I can send you a pic if you like). These have the advantage of beiing a whole lot cheaper then getting a block cast in decnt steel, cleaning it up and so forth.
The steel that I use for dishing bowls is also harder then just poured steel...this means you need a lot less mass then the swage block would need.

Sasha

Loren Patterson · Post by **Loren Patterson** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 4:11 pm

Sasha, I would be interested in both of the things you mentioned.
- Loren
and8995@olywa.net

white mountain armoury · Sat Jun 30, 2001 6:32 am

my 2 cents, i dont see much use for vambrace shapes or greave shapes, pounding a vambrace into a form is more work than its woth when they form easily over a pipe shaped stake, same with greaves.
id use small shallow cone shapes for making the cone shaped disks atop eastern style spangens, i use something similar on my current swage but they are holes not cones.
i do agree with the concentric rod shaped depressions, i have these on my current swage and they are usefull.
a small depression for starting tha basic shape for gadlings would be nice also.
shallow dishes of diff size would be fine. i think the dishes on the swage on e-bay are far to deep to be usefull for armouring.
I should point out that ironmonger/eric has swages that are more usefull to use than the e-bay ones, his have bowls, vambrace shapes, concentric grooves etc.
i think more than a swage id like some particular stakes.

Sasha · Post by **Sasha** » Sat Jun 30, 2001 8:05 am

The greave and vambrace shapes I am refering to are the fully formed variety (as in the shape of the body and not just a tapered cone), so that you get the nice counter flare on the vambrace and the bulge for muscles as you go back towards the lames. The greave form I mean is the calf muscle definition to be found on the back of the better greaves

Of course you could ,in practical terms, only get one of each into a swage block...and sizes do vary somewhat. But you can make a strong beginning with these forms and then finish on a stake much quicker then doing all of the shaping as stake-work.

Sasha

white mountain armoury · Sat Jun 30, 2001 11:29 am

i figgured you were referring to shaped greaves and vams, i prefer to shape mine over a stake thats all.