Shields

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Heater shields are getting bigger and bigger. It's ridiculous.

[BdeB]

Heater shields are getting bigger and bigger. It's ridiculous.

What makes you say that, Sir?

[Guest]

Question for you Sir Vitus...

I just bought a 24x36 Heater Shield from Illusion Armoury and had them cut it down to 24x34. Do you think that is too big?

I just went with the one they had in stock and shortened it cause I'm short.

No other thoughts went into the decision.

[Cuan]

Greetings Sir Vitus:

I agree that heater shields are getting too large. I own a variety of shields, including a 24" x 36" heater, and I fight with all of them depending on my mood. To those who ask, "so what", or "too large for what", I would say that heater shields are becoming too big for the good of the game.

In my own kingdom, I feel that we have a real scarcity of fighters who excel at two swords, polearm, bastard sword, and great sword. I attribute this to the fact that people like to be successful in what they do and, in our culture, the Crown has been won over the last decade by fighters carrying 24" x 36" heaters. On an average sized person, if you combine a shield with that much coverage with a good sword block, the sword and shield fighter will always have an advantage over the fighter with the "off weapon" assuming both fighters are of equal skill. In Atlantia, we have a world class glaive fighter named Sir Vlad. In the finals of the last Crown, he tore me up in the glaive fight. But the last fight of the final was his glaive on my sword and shield. He got to throw one shot (which I took on the shield) before I was inside his range and hammering him in the back of the head. Had I been carrying a small heater, I might have chosen to face him with a glaive or bastard sword instead. So in Atlantia, I believe, the dominance of the big heater style has hurt our fighting development. And leaving a lack of training with off weapons aside, big heaters allow for more mistakes without consequences, so good footwork is less important.

Two other developments may also be related to big shield preference. The first is the rise of effective combat archery. By effective I mean that with the move away from golf tube arrows and the coming of the cheap, accurate crossbow, a line fighter in a melee involving combat archery feels pretty naked without a big shield. This is certainly true in a game where our armor offers us none of the protection from arrows that it did our historical counterparts. In a combat archery rich environment like Gulf Wars, you will not see a lot of guys in the line of battle with bucklers. The second development is the movement by some toward counting coup on the enemy instead of training to deliver a telling blow with good power generation behind it. Before anyone gets his knickers in a twist, I am not making a value judgment concerning whether or not the SCA should hit hard or not. I am simply pointing out that this movement is out there. So it is not unexpected that fighters facing 12 ounce swords wielded by young men in aluminum, or hockey equipment, would want the biggest, lightest, aircraft aluminum shields available. It is a classic arms race. If a wrist flip equals a kill, then it makes sense to have the biggest thing in front of you you can get. Now,some kingdoms have rules that limit shield size so as to preserve the balance between light, fast offense and shield defense -at least in Crown Tourney. To me, the better answer would be to enforce the rules regarding weapon and shield weights as they compare to their historical antecedents. Such a practice would also eliminate seven and a half foot long, unpadded whip glaives, or as I call them, "fishing poles".

If our shields are indestructible, they at least ought to weigh the same as their historical counterparts. I think that would go a long way towards limiting shield size. I have tried, in the past, to start a movement towards smaller shields and weapons diversity in Atlantian tournaments, both by rulemaking and by example, but I failed to have any lasting impact. So I now think that Society wide rules on shield weights (not construction materials, you poor college students) and weapon weights is the only way to correct the problem.

Thank you, Sir Vitus, for the topic.

Regards,

Cuan

[Gaston de Vieuxchamps]

Heater shields are getting bigger and bigger. It's ridiculous.

LOL. Just had to get that off your chest, eh?

I've been whining about giant heaters for a long time but now I'm thinking if people would just make them longer and skinnier, they might pass for some of the shields depicted in the sieges in Foissart and elsewhere. Big shields are here to stay, but maybe we can coax them into more realistic shapes?

In any event, I like giant heaters better than 2'x4' flat rectangles.

[jester]

Heater shields are getting bigger and bigger. It's ridiculous.

What do you expect? Our ruleset rewards people who fight with big shields (as Cuan graphically illustrates). The goal of SCA fighting is, by and large, to win. So long as these conditions prevail people will continue to use big shields.

To get rid of big shields, change the conditions.
-Disallow their use by hosting weapons specific tournaments. e.g have a polearm tournament or a longsword tournament.
-Make them ablative. Rule that four good edge strikes destroy a shield. Limit participants to two shields per tournament. Again, do this as a condition at a specific tourney, not changing the rules in general.
-Make basket hilts a legal target. This will change the 'protected weapons platform' mentality seen in a lot of SCA sword and shield combat. It's also potentially dangerous and carries a lot of political baggage.
-Allow people to grab shields and that defensive implement becomes a great big lever to manipulate your opponent's position. Again, dangerous and political.

[Ceddie]

I've been whining about giant heaters for a long time but now I'm thinking if people would just make them longer and skinnier, they might pass for some of the shields depicted in the sieges in Foissart and elsewhere. Big shields are here to stay, but maybe we can coax them into more realistic shapes?

In any event, I like giant heaters better than 2'x4' flat rectangles.

Thats 'cause YOUR long and skinny, Give us fat guys a break.

[Melisent]

At a fall crown here in Atlantia a few years ago, a fighter entered the list with full Roman regalia which was all very nice looking, but he was also carrying the roman style 2'x4' war shield. His skill wasnt great, but he was extremely difficult for more skilled fighters to kill because of this enormous shield.

There is little sport in standing behind a door to defend oneself.

Pax
Melisent

[Jean Paul de Sens]

Cuan, what do you feel an appropriately weight shield should be ? 2 lb/sq foot? 3? My shield weighs in at just about 2 lbs/ square foot (course its only 4 square feet in size).

I've felt for a while that a big shield is a detriment most to the mid-range fighter. The superior fighter will use the advantages and disadvantages of their shield to correct for errors (not deficiencies but tactical errors) in footwork. The average fighter will use their shield to hide their deficiencies.

My kingdom tends to have a prevalence to a large shields, although I'm starting to see more alternate styles than what was once there.

[jenseny]

I've been whining about giant heaters for a long time but now I'm thinking if people would just make them longer and skinnier, they might pass for some of the shields depicted in the sieges in Foissart and elsewhere.

I'm currently working on the shape of a heater which is to be about 20"x38-40"
But that's just 'cause I'm only 18" across at the shoulders, and about 44" from shoulder to knee. This fact makes leg protection singularly challenging for me with a 22"x30" heater.

Where can I find images of the shields in the battles you speak of?

*edit*
I always have some problem with the tags...

[Shamey]

I like being able to hide almost completely behind my shield, wouldn't be ale to do that with a smaller one.

[BdeB]

Most often, i'm fighting with my 24x36 heater shield. My persona would actually fight with one longer. Then again, i'd also be on a horse!

I actually have a couple of different shield sizes for different events. Everything over the years from the 'target' heatershield I made for Knight of the Heart, a few months back, to the six round shields I helped make for Ymir the other weekend.

I personally like fighting matched shield sizes the best, no matter what shape or size they are. The I33 bucklers are a lot of fun for making you move your feet.

I will freely admit that my worst fight is against a big, defensive guy, with a huge (in my world that's anything bigger than 24x36 heater ~heh) mucking shield.

You can beat them however. Plus you have the added advantage of hiding behind your oppenants shield.

I'd like to see a matched shield convention for a Pas. I think that would make for some intersting fights.

[Loegaire mac Gilray]

The old rule for Trimaris Crown Lyst was that your shield could, at the most, be shoulder-to-shoulder wide and groin-to-neck tall. Eventually everyone just started fighting with 19" x 30" postage-stamps (I think that was Baldar's shield size under those rules), and that's why the Kingdom came be known for small shields and short swords (someone correct me if I just butchered Kingdom history).

Personally, I'd have no problem if we went back to the shield size relative to body size rules as long as we could use different shapes (eg ovals, heaters, pavaises, wankels, kites, etc). I did pick-ups this weekend at crown with short guy using a 2x4 rectangle as his tourny shield, and it was just stupid. Don't get me wrong, I love big shields for war, but 1-on-1...

-L

[Animal]

Big sheilds can be a pain in the ass, but if youre smart about it you can get as much protection from them as the guy carrying it. It's a two way street thing in my experience. The thing that has always puzzled me was why SCA fighters always seem to insist on carrying cavalry type sheilds on foot. The big ones are the ones I'd want in a war, especially with arrows flying all over. Just a thought.

[Cuan]

Jean Paul:

First, congratulations on the accolade; I look forward to visiting you on your vigil at GW. Now, you asked about appropriate shield weights. That gets tricky because we are dealing with more than a simple question of weights and measures. Let me say that my knowledge of shield weights is limited to a couple of hundred years, and specific areas of Western Europe, while the SCA covers from 600 to 1600 and includes characters from any region you can name (and some you can't). So, establishing a system of weights will inevitably disadvantage the generic-celt who wants to argue that his plastic shield simulates a wicker shield in use against Roman soldiers, blah, blah, blah. But let us assume that we get past that. Then we have to decide what type of shield we want to see in use. IOW, Duke Gaston has a beautiful 15th (?) century buckler in aluminum. Now it is a metal shield, and in shape and size it is an accurate reproduction. But there is no way that it ways what a wooden shield of the same size would weigh if we were to do a simple surface area to poundage calculation. Instead, I think I would define shields by date, shape, purpose, and material and proceed from there. For example, the earliest heaters that I know of, the ones that seem to be the result of cutting the top off of the Norman kite, should be constructed of a minimum of 1/2 inch plywood, edged properly so as to protect your opponents weapon. Then the weight to size problem takes care of itself. For those that want an aluminum large heater, it is up to them to demonstrate to the marshal or the Crown that their shield weighs the same as a wooden counterpart of the same size. In this way, you put the onus on those seeking to use less authentic materials to bring their gear up to weight, rather than encouraging those who use wood and canvas and leather to lower their standards in pursuit of a competitive edge.

Let's face it; you will not take the competitive aspect out of the SCA in favor of proper gear and technique -it's fun to strive against each other and it is human nature to seek an edge. That is why baseball is struggling with steroid abuse and Hockey is talking about reducing the size of goalie pads to increase scoring. You have to have rules if you want everyone competing on the same field. If you didn't have rules about such things, a hockey team could put a sumo wrestler in goal with a queen size mattress strapped to his chest. So the only way I see to preserve people's persona choices viz shield shape and size is to enforce weight equivalency based on the best historical evidence we have. This would, of course, require a lot of data collection and the education of the marshallate Society-wide.

Cuan

[Alcyoneus]

My 1' round aluminum buckler with edging, and straps weighs 2 pounds.

Why is it that when people propose destructible shields, they never remember that weapons should get stuck in them?

[BdeB]

Wow, Your Highness....slow day at the Legal Firm today?!?!

[FrauHirsch]

The old rule for Trimaris Crown Lyst was that your shield could, at the most, be shoulder-to-shoulder wide and groin-to-neck tall. <snip>
Don't get me wrong, I love big shields for war, but 1-on-1...

-L

A king made that rule in Caid for one Caidan Crown. It was pretty obvious that it was really bad for women, who tend to have shorter torsos than men, narrower shoulders than hips, and longer femurs than men. The men mostly had reasonably normal sized heaters. The women all had postage stamps. It was so blatantly bias it hasn't been done since.

The king didn't do it on purpose, he just had no idea that it would affect the women to such an extreme.

We mostly have separate large shields that are used for war. One rarely sees a giant shield in a tourney out here. Its mostly through peer pressure.

-Juliana

[Edward de la Pole]

We mostly have separate large shields that are used for war. One rarely sees a giant shield in a tourney out here. Its mostly through peer pressure.

-Juliana

I enjoy shield use so long as it is allowed to be used in the manner intended. I find the SCA rules on shields to be very restrictive.

I am fairly short for a man and have a fairly short reach, for me to be effective against lankier opponents I have to get in close and dirty which often means shield/body contact. I've been on the receiving end of this hard press and find it exhilarating! I even had a center boss shield that I used with a thrusting point in the center mimicking a Scottish Targe, it was great fun picking up an opponent with a left uppercut to the body:D

Having fought this way for years, I find it hard to back off of the aggressive use for SCA combat.

My shield (can't remember the exact dimensions) is a heater that runs approx shoulder to shoulder, neck to groin.

[Hrogn]

Where I live, we don't have this problem with big shields but I would think that outlawing a specific shield because it is too effective doesn't seem right to me. In the SCA there is always trade-offs with every style and nothing is the ultimate combination that just can't be beat. Just learn to fight against it rather than banning it. Maybe a spear isn't the correct choice as a weapon to fight against a big shield. Maybe try a couple of foot long daggers and climb right in there and stab like there is no tomorrow. You might lose an arm on the way in if you're unlucky but you should be able to get a dagger around that thing and you have nothing but speed and mobility with two daggers. If you don't like the idea of two daggers, a small hand axe and a dagger might also be an idea since it is a little easier to block with an axe and you can also throw punches with them.

[Loegaire mac Gilray]

Duke Gaston has a beautiful 15th (?) century buckler in aluminum. Now it is a metal shield, and in shape and size it is an accurate reproduction. But there is no way that it ways what a wooden shield of the same size would weigh if we were to do a simple surface area to poundage calculation.

The shield you're talking about was metal in period (it's from Gladitoria)) and is quite a bit heavier than my full-sized oval due to all the re-enforcing welds he has across it. The reality of it is, his shield is probably heavier than the period version.

Not trying to burst your bubble, "just sayin"

-L

[InsaneIrish]

In Calontir the shield size it determined by arm length. If you can put the shield under your arm and curl your fingers around the oposite end then you can use it in Crown tourney. That way the shields will be pretty proportionate to the fighter no matter what size.

[Cuan]

Loegaire:

I understand that Gaston's buckler in period was built of metal. Was that unclear from my post? I was pointing out that it is aluminum instead of steel that would have been used in period. I was also pointing out that such a shield (even in aluminum) should be allowed because it is metal and shaped and constructed like the original. I have held Gaston's buckler at Pennsic last year and I sincerely doubt it weighs more than its period counterpart since it and its attendant welds are aluminum. And as for the fact that your full sized oval weighs more than his buckler, I would say that points out that unlike our ancestors you can have a big, easy to move, everlasting shield without paying the price of carrying a large, sturdy, heavy shield.

Cuan

[Loegaire mac Gilray]

Hehe, I think we might have misunderstood each other. Let me address you point by point so I'm clear as can be.

Loegaire:

I understand that Gaston's buckler in period was built of metal. Was that unclear from my post?

Yep, you were comparing it to the weight of a wooden shield - that's apples and oranges IMO.

I was pointing out that it is aluminum instead of steel that would have been used in period. I was also pointing out that such a shield (even in aluminum) should be allowed because it is metal and shaped and constructed like the original.

My apologies, I took the wrong impression and thought you were complaining about the fact is was obviously metal and not wooden.

I have held Gaston's buckler at Pennsic last year and I sincerely doubt it weighs more than its period counterpart since it and its attendant welds are aluminum.

I'm going to have to say I think you're wrong on this one. We went and checked out armour from the Higgins collection about a month ago, and I was pretty surprised to find that a full, late-period suit only weighed in at ~35 pounds. Work-hardened 20g mild steel is waaaay lighter than the stainless stuff we run around in, as well as signifigantly tougher.

Would his shield be heavier if he made it with modern steel? Of course it would. Is that representative of period steel and period weight? Nope.

And as for the fact that your full sized oval weighs more than his buckler, I would say that points out that unlike our ancestors you can have a big, easy to move, everlasting shield without paying the price of carrying a large, sturdy, heavy shield.

My shield is .90 thick aluminum, almost twice the thickness of the .50 uber-light shields a lot of guys run around with. I'll weigh it when I get home just for you

Also, our ancestors typically destroyed 3+ shields per battle...that's alot more work than most of us are willing to put into realism.

-L

*Edit* I'll just ask him about it next time I talk to him, he knows waaay more about the materials and techniques involved than I do, and could probably make more sense than I am.

[Thaddeus]

Does Caid still have weight requirements on shields and weapons for use in tournament? I seem to recall from way back ni the when that they did, but I have been living in the landof the mutilated street sign kite shield for far too long and have forgotten some of the details.

[Asbjorn Johansen]

When it comes to “large shields” in formal single combats and the prevalence of shields in general there are several ways you can address the problem. You can change the rules of how we fight in general, change the rules for the equipment in general, or change the rules for the particular combat that is occurring (arguably you could try to change the culture, but I think our fighting culture is so success driven it wouldn’t work). While I like changing the rules in general, I think encouraging folks to change the rules of a specific combat would be more successful.

For example, rather then run the standard SCA “everything in” single combat, you could side step the issue by requiring the use of a particular set of matched weapons each round. While this puts the onus on the sponsor of the combat to do some preparation (either widely communicate the weapon requirement or provide matched sets for the combatants) it would much more closely resemble the typical pre 1600 formal armoured combat. In most cases, and there are some exceptions, formal armoured combats between individuals were done with equivalent weapons. You can do something as general as fight a round with spear, a round with greatsword, a round with polearm, and a round with sword and shield, to providing exact very precise requirements for recreating a particular time and place, for example a strapped heater shaped shield of no more the X inches across and Y inches long, to approximate the late 14th century in France, or a round shield of no more then X inches in diameter to approximate the 10th century in Iceland.

Based on my experience with the SCA, if you want to make any significant change that would effect combat in general, it has to happen at the prestige combats, such as Crown or a Champions combat in the case of single combats. Otherwise the rule set is dismissed or seen as a distraction from “real tourneys”.

Asbjorn

[Gaston de Vieuxchamps]

There seems to be a lot of talk about my tourney shield.
It is 1/8" 6061 welded alluminum with 1/8" and 1/4" reinforcements. It is edged with seatbelt webbing sewn on.

This makes it nearly twice as heavy as the original steel shield which was not edged, but rather tempered steel with rolled edges raised in a single piece.

This was necessary because it takes a LOT of abuse and, despite my efforts, is nearing retirement.

Most of the cool shaped wooden shields from the same time period were made of wood, rawhide, and hideglue. The surfaces were gessoed and painted and the result is actually lighter than the typical SCA plywood heater with rubber hose edging and metal handle.

There were some very heavy shields in earlier period (the Romans had scutums that were heavy, about 20 pounds in some cases if I recall). There were also light ones, early and late.

I don't think that a good argument can be made that a lot of people are running around with shields that are too light except maybe in the northeast where plastic shields seem to be popular. Some of those are absurdly light and the handling characteristics and way the plastic flexes and reacts to impact absorbing energy seems way out of line to me. Though even so, I have seen at least one UHMW shield that was nearly 1/2" thick and very realistic.

Our weapons are also not terribly out of line with extant pieces. Real swords, like real shields and real armour, were generally much lighter than we give them credit for. I believe Cariadoc has provided more than enough dissertaion on this and so I won't bother with repetition.

As Leogaire mentioned, visiting museums (or reading museum catalogs)can be a real eye-openner.

[Vebrand]

The funny thing on all of this is using today's materials we have a hard time matching period weights. I have an aluminum 23 x 34 heater that weighs about 16-18lbs (depending on when I weigh it ) . I have had several friends make wooden heaters that are much, much lighter and almost rival the aircraft aluminum shields out there. As Cuan said it is an arms race in many ways and people are always looking for whatever edge they feel will help them. Whether it does or not is a different story

I don't mind guys with big shields for the most part. As stated above you can use those shields as part of your defense. A giant shield also limits the range of shots a fighter can use. Once you realize these limitations then you can take advantage of the giant shield users.

That being said, for crowns and other such tourneys I think limitations of a sort are probably good. There is no perfect system that fits all people and body types. However, if crown and other high profile tourneys are supposed to highlight the premier fighters at the highest skill then matching shield sizes or restrictions is one way of doing this.

Just my two cents,
Vebrand

[Edward MacTavish]

I really dont see a problem with any shield as long as it is in a period shape. On the other hand I cant stand seeing a wall of barn doors chase me down. Its too mutch work trying to jump up over the shield to take a swing.

Edward MacTavish

[Fearghus Macildubh]

I've found that an opponent carry a big shield is more of a benefit for me. I usually use it to hide behind and strike over, since I'm 6'4".
It could be that I haven't fought a really good big shield fighter that often. I know some of the Ansteorans I've fought were used to getting in close with big shields and used that style quite well. Myself, I use 24" round or a 20x34 oval, when I use a shield at all.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Shield weight is a hard thing to argue about, because many knightly shields were probably not that heavy at all- does anyone have that issue of Chronique about The Knightly Shield laying around? My problem is these gigantic heaters, because they are just ridiculous looking. My own guys have been using them since we have had a few Atlantian immigrants, and it sort of irritates me.
The Pictish shields in the hands of knights- another extreme irritatition.
But H.H. Cuan's points about glaive men like Sir Vlad- I understand the sentiment. I suppose the era-blending is getting to me more and more these days....

[sedric]

I understand Sir Vitus' frustration, If I could accept blows the way my armour would protect (15th C. 3/4 plate) Then I would gladly give up my 26 X 36 heater and fight bastard sword or sword and buckler in tourneys, I'll stick to the pole in mellee's, thankyou very much!

I also understand that the armour standards in the SCA are not going to change anytime soon, I accept them and work within them, willingly and happy to have somewhere to gather together and compete.

[Templar Bob/De Tyre]

Sir Vitus:

This thread begs a question--I fight with the shield size I do because it is true to the size a man-at-arms or knight of the 12th to 13th centuries would use. Any larger is too cumbersome--and any smaller is of limited use to a person primarily armoured in maille. While I portray a 12th century impression (and wish to be faithful to that impression), I have to be fit to report to my 21st century job afterwards

My options would be to use any number of weapons with a shield, a Danish axe or a spear. A man-at-arms using two swords would not be commonly met with--nor would he likely use a farming implement except in extremity. What alternatives do you suggest, when a person is attempting to learn the skills of someone portraying an impression from this era?

ADDENDUM: My tournament shield measures 28" wide (the width of my shoulders) by 33" long (the length from my chin to my groin).

[St. George]

Vitus- just out of curiosity, when you speak of era-blending are you speaking of vikings with heater shields, or the wide breadth of periods which the SCA allows for?

I, for one, cannot stand when someone takes an inappropriate weapon or shield for their persona onto the field as it looks completely ridiculous. I banned non-matching periods from my crown (and took a lot of heat for it too).

Not to mention that the manner in which most folks in the SCA decorate their shields makes them look like crapola. Plastic shields with three year old spay paint jobs of some "celtic" design that are flaking off in huge chunks look like absolute crap.

Also, the least people can do is try and paint something close to heraldically correct on their shield- no more "Lion King Cubs" instead of lions, or "cute puppies" instead of dogs.

Alaric

PS- who moved here from Atlantia?

PPS- I have been trying a number of different ways to get canvas to not get torn off of my shield after a few practices. Someone mentioned that I need to put more jesso on the canvas, and then a few layers of shellac or similar once I am done to further strengthen it. I have thought about using leather as a base instead, but am not ready to give up on canvas yet.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

IMO, it is once again an example of WINNING being put ahead of the SPIRIT of SCA combat. Combatants pushing their own personal agendas and desires (in this case, winning) ahead of spirit of SCA Chivalry (really, the most romantic notions of Knightly combat, un-historic they might be).

This is why shields get bigger.

This is why warshields used to have "mud flaps".

This is why we all bitch about CA, but no Kingdom will do away with them.

This is why calibration is getting higher and higher.

This is why sport armour is popular.

This is why BOTH principals at Pennsic put all the emphasis on getting more allies, battle rules in their favor, how points are counted, etc. instead of creating senarios that provides the opportunity for the most fun for the most fighters.

When we a focus and reward skill and spirit in equal measure, and BOTH more so than base victory, many of these problems willl likely go away.


Dilan