Re-write the Requirements for Participants in the SCA

[tessathehuntress]

Society does not have an early cut off date. It's pre.. 17th century.

There are a lot of people with personas from the 1st, 2nd, 3, 4th centuries.

Just FYI..

Tessa

[Owen]

I wear 1st century Roman garb, then wear 1st century Roman armor. Isn't that even more consitent?

[St. George]

Of course it is, but first steps first.

Alaric

[Josh W]

I think some of you take SCA concepts of fealty and loyalty WAY too seriously. Grow up.

[Saverio]

We'd have to carry photo-id for our STUFF?!?

Yep. One picture of a portrait or statue or armour of the time should cost you maybe a dollar.

This shouldn't be too expensive or too hard to do.

It would also prove that an "attempt" has been made.

There will be no authentic portraits of elves, vampires, etc...

-Aaron

There are no drawings of early Anglo-Saxon armour (5th-7th centuries). We have fragments of things and an occasional helmet. The same can be said about many of the other Migration Era warriors, as well as the Vikings. You could, instead, require documentation for a panoply, allowing paintings, carvings, archaeological evidence, and written accounts. Of course, most of them require interpretation of some sort...

[Jared]

Hey, your Grace.. heres a concept.. start your own goddamn group if you dont like this one, which has seen fit to make you a king TWICE.


Maeryk

With respect, Maeryk, His Grace's own efforts made him a kind TWICE. Whether or not I agree with his premise, it is not "the organization" that made him King. That Ducal coronet he is entitled to is a service award for having put up with two very difficult reigns in a very contentious kingdom. I know; I was in the middle of one of the problems he had to deal with.

To address the other, I am not sure that I agree with his premise; if you start excluding -anyone- how long before someone who wants to see only 14th or 15th century French or even Elizabethan decides that Byzantine is inappropriate. Once you start excluding, where do you stop? I do agree that a clearer statement of what constitutes a sufficient attempt might be appropriate.

Jared Blaydeaux
Caid[/b]

[dukelogan]

the problem jared is that the charter excludes certain things that many people are ok with turning a blind eye to. alaric isnt suggesting that we exclude all but 14th and 15th french or anything even remotely like that. what he is suggesting, and i support as well, is that we finally start to enforce the things the charter that all participants at sca events agree to follow states. that means no bimbos in chain maille bikinis, no exposed t-shirts on the field, no coleman chairs, and no soda cans lying about. the list goes on and on and on and on and on.

the mentality of total acceptance sucks and needs to be reigned in. or, if its the will of the masses, change the charter to allow laziness and total acceptance. thats all.

regards
logan

Hey, your Grace.. heres a concept.. start your own goddamn group if you dont like this one, which has seen fit to make you a king TWICE.


Maeryk

With respect, Maeryk, His Grace's own efforts made him a kind TWICE. Whether or not I agree with his premise, it is not "the organization" that made him King. That Ducal coronet he is entitled to is a service award for having put up with two very difficult reigns in a very contentious kingdom. I know; I was in the middle of one of the problems he had to deal with.

To address the other, I am not sure that I agree with his premise; if you start excluding -anyone- how long before someone who wants to see only 14th or 15th century French or even Elizabethan decides that Byzantine is inappropriate. Once you start excluding, where do you stop? I do agree that a clearer statement of what constitutes a sufficient attempt might be appropriate.

Jared Blaydeaux
Caid[/b]

[Jared]

the problem jared is that the charter excludes certain things that many people are ok with turning a blind eye to. alaric isnt suggesting that we exclude all but 14th and 15th french or anything even remotely like that. what he is suggesting, and i support as well, is that we finally start to enforce the things the charter that all participants at sca events agree to follow states. that means no bimbos in chain maille bikinis, no exposed t-shirts on the field, no coleman chairs, and no soda cans lying about. the list goes on and on and on and on and on.

the mentality of total acceptance sucks and needs to be reigned in. or, if its the will of the masses, change the charter to allow laziness and total acceptance. thats all.

regards
logan

Your Grace, I agree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph. I just think the way Duke Alaric phrased it left, perhaps, something to be desired. I saw what crap the poor guy went through when he made a similar suggestion regarding appearance on the field while he was on Caid's throne. You'd have thought he killed people's favorite puppy! As God is my witness, he suggested, very discreetly, that perhaps certain things were not appropriate, and asked for a certain level of dress and armor periodicity for Crown Tourney ("...no aggressively modern patterned trews ..." was one of the suggestions, and not a bad one.) I don't think the idea the way you state it is a bad one; the problem boils down, to paraphrase: "Who bells the cat?"

Who is going to be the one to go to someone and say, bluntly, "Your appearance is not considered an appropriate attempt?" Who makes the decision? All Corpora says, and I'm looking at it right now, is "Anyone may attend Society events provided he or she wears an attempt at pre-17th century clothing,...." There's more, but that's the appearance requirment in Section II.B.

How do we enforce something that vague, and who's will to take responsibility for doing so? I can't imagine what sort of brouhaha it would raise if someone were to publicly tell someone else, "I'm sorry. That is not a sufficient attempt. Yes, I know they had rabbit skins in period and conjecturally could have arranged them that way, but bikinis are -not- period!"

Part of the problem I -do- see is that the overall ability of a great number of members to be able to research and reconstruct truly splendid examples has improved mightily over the 31 years I've been in. Even I know better than to wear purple polyester any more, though I do occasionally opt for plain black sweat pants instead of real tudor-style trews, just for comfort's sake. God knows I haven't seen a flak jacket or a freon-can helm in years. Because of that higher bar of the upper end of the ability of the members of the organization, the gap between there and both the clueless newbie and the "don't care" crowd is much more apparent. The question of how the standard is enforced was the crux of my issue about excluding certain periods -- there -have- been people who suggest that Alaric's own Byzantine armor is "too early" and "not Western Europe" and therefore not appropriate. They were wearing kydex breastplates under surcoats of no particular style or period. Sigh . . .

At a tourney yesterday here in Caid, there was a group of young men sitting behind the pavilion I was in, who were all wearing very fine lamellar armor, nice helms and using well maintained shields and swords. They were sitting in lawn chairs, smoking cigarettes, and drinking from the Gatorade bottles. How should that be addressed?

I recognize and agree that there's a problem; I just don't see how to fix it.

Jared

[Maeryk]

At a tourney yesterday here in Caid, there was a group of young men sitting behind the pavilion I was in, who were all wearing very fine lamellar armor, nice helms and using well maintained shields and swords. They were sitting in lawn chairs, smoking cigarettes, and drinking from the Gatorade bottles. How should that be addressed?

This is where you get into "central area" vs "non central area". You dont specify, but I think what goes on in peoples camps is in peoples camps. I wouldnt want to see that in the middle of court, or in the middle of merchants row, or at the feast.. but then again, how many of us sit in metal folding chairs provided by the site for feast?

I try to hide the coke can.. (or drink beer out of a bottle.. at least its MORE period..) and I am trying to get my camp in shape.. but I just spent 1000 on a pavilion.. I cannot afford at the moment to go buy cerule chairs, ya know?

I would be happy if I could walk through the middle of any given event without running into some guy in sweats, pot belly no shirt, with a towel around his neck, wet hair, and chewing on a toothbrush wearing flip flops. The coke can doesnt even irk me much.

Merchants wearing jeans, birkenstocks and a bad T-tunic bug me though.. if you are going to make money off us, at least have the decency to try to fit in.

Blue hair, tattoos, facial piercings, and belly buttons.. all should nto be seen in the SCA, as far as I'm concerned.

Maeryk

[Animal]

Hmmm, Romans tattooed their faces, the Celts had extensive tattooing done. Huns, Scyths, the list goes on. As long as people have had skin they have tattooed it. Same goes for piercings, facial or otherwise. People decorate themselves and carry those decorations with them throughout all aspects of their lives. If you're gonna let something like a tattoo or piercing on someone ruin your fun then that's just sad. Just sayin.

[Maeryk]

Hmmm, Romans tattooed their faces, the Celts had extensive tattooing done. Huns, Scyths, the list goes on. As long as people have had skin they have tattooed it. Same goes for piercings, facial or otherwise. People decorate themselves and carry those decorations with them throughout all aspects of their lives. If you're gonna let something like a tattoo or piercing on someone ruin your fun then that's just sad. Just sayin.

Theres a big difference between the pigmented dot design of the picts or celts, and a back piece of Yosemite Sam that says :"BACK OFF".

Or of some of the stuff I have seen hanging out of peoples faces.

And the day-glo hair that I have seen so much of lately.. well.. theres no real excuse for that, period.

Maeryk
(Yes, Animal, I know you have tattoos.. but really, if you are in virtually any kind of medieval garb, you should really have sleeves.)

[dukelogan]

again its your communication "skills" maeryk. you said tattoos, not yosemite sam tattoos. animal responded to what you said not what you meant to say.

but at least you hit it dead on with the sleeves. please people if you are going to wear tunics at least have sleeves. this to me is a higher level attempt. short sleeved tunics are better than slobs in coleman chairs but i think sleeves should be next.

regards
logan

Hmmm, Romans tattooed their faces, the Celts had extensive tattooing done. Huns, Scyths, the list goes on. As long as people have had skin they have tattooed it. Same goes for piercings, facial or otherwise. People decorate themselves and carry those decorations with them throughout all aspects of their lives. If you're gonna let something like a tattoo or piercing on someone ruin your fun then that's just sad. Just sayin.

Theres a big difference between the pigmented dot design of the picts or celts, and a back piece of Yosemite Sam that says :"BACK OFF".

Or of some of the stuff I have seen hanging out of peoples faces.

And the day-glo hair that I have seen so much of lately.. well.. theres no real excuse for that, period.

Maeryk
(Yes, Animal, I know you have tattoos.. but really, if you are in virtually any kind of medieval garb, you should really have sleeves.)

[Maeryk]

again its your communication "skills" maeryk. you said tattoos, not yosemite sam tattoos. animal responded to what you said not what you meant to say.

Yeah.. I phrased that badly.

I dont know that you are of a level to snark me, Logan.. but I get the point.

But I still stand on the blue hair bit!

Maeryk

[Jehan de Pelham]

I saw a flak jacket three weeks ago.

Jehan de Pelham, squire of Sir Vitus

[dukelogan]

blue jeans, tennis shoes, coleman chairs, blue hair, chain maille bikinis, coolers, coke cans, beer bottles, cell phones, plastic armor, morons with bumper stickers on their helms, and ez ups are not, by any stretch of any imagination an attempt at anything medieval. that is what i am talking about. why is that so hard to deal with? nothing vague nothing difficult to describe or define. those things are not attempts at all. they are lazy bullshit excuses for lazy people that dont care to follow the rules already in place. yet the sca just sits by and accepts it. its really very stupid. that is the only point ive tried to make.



regards
logan

the problem jared is that the charter excludes certain things that many people are ok with turning a blind eye to. alaric isnt suggesting that we exclude all but 14th and 15th french or anything even remotely like that. what he is suggesting, and i support as well, is that we finally start to enforce the things the charter that all participants at sca events agree to follow states. that means no bimbos in chain maille bikinis, no exposed t-shirts on the field, no coleman chairs, and no soda cans lying about. the list goes on and on and on and on and on.

the mentality of total acceptance sucks and needs to be reigned in. or, if its the will of the masses, change the charter to allow laziness and total acceptance. thats all.

regards
logan

Your Grace, I agree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph. I just think the way Duke Alaric phrased it left, perhaps, something to be desired. I saw what crap the poor guy went through when he made a similar suggestion regarding appearance on the field while he was on Caid's throne. You'd have thought he killed people's favorite puppy! As God is my witness, he suggested, very discreetly, that perhaps certain things were not appropriate, and asked for a certain level of dress and armor periodicity for Crown Tourney ("...no aggressively modern patterned trews ..." was one of the suggestions, and not a bad one.) I don't think the idea the way you state it is a bad one; the problem boils down, to paraphrase: "Who bells the cat?"

Who is going to be the one to go to someone and say, bluntly, "Your appearance is not considered an appropriate attempt?" Who makes the decision? All Corpora says, and I'm looking at it right now, is "Anyone may attend Society events provided he or she wears an attempt at pre-17th century clothing,...." There's more, but that's the appearance requirment in Section II.B.

How do we enforce something that vague, and who's will to take responsibility for doing so? I can't imagine what sort of brouhaha it would raise if someone were to publicly tell someone else, "I'm sorry. That is not a sufficient attempt. Yes, I know they had rabbit skins in period and conjecturally could have arranged them that way, but bikinis are -not- period!"

Part of the problem I -do- see is that the overall ability of a great number of members to be able to research and reconstruct truly splendid examples has improved mightily over the 31 years I've been in. Even I know better than to wear purple polyester any more, though I do occasionally opt for plain black sweat pants instead of real tudor-style trews, just for comfort's sake. God knows I haven't seen a flak jacket or a freon-can helm in years. Because of that higher bar of the upper end of the ability of the members of the organization, the gap between there and both the clueless newbie and the "don't care" crowd is much more apparent. The question of how the standard is enforced was the crux of my issue about excluding certain periods -- there -have- been people who suggest that Alaric's own Byzantine armor is "too early" and "not Western Europe" and therefore not appropriate. They were wearing kydex breastplates under surcoats of no particular style or period. Sigh . . .

At a tourney yesterday here in Caid, there was a group of young men sitting behind the pavilion I was in, who were all wearing very fine lamellar armor, nice helms and using well maintained shields and swords. They were sitting in lawn chairs, smoking cigarettes, and drinking from the Gatorade bottles. How should that be addressed?

I recognize and agree that there's a problem; I just don't see how to fix it.

Jared

[Maeryk]

beer bottles

Glass bottles are quite period.

Maeryk

[dukelogan]

ha, how funny considering my last post about your "skills". i should have said beer bottles that are only 12 oz and that have modern labels on them. i guess i thought that was a given.

touché

logan

beer bottles

Glass bottles are quite period.

Maeryk

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Joaquin, if a famous asian martial artist were on this board, would you dare tell him that he takes Shinto, Buddhist, Zen or other philosophical ideas that are part and parcel of those disciplines too seriously? Fealty and Loyalty are central to the chivalric Way...it's part of what we study and seek to understand.
As usual, you offer nothing constructive.

[Jehan de Pelham]

Train wreck. Of a swine train. And the conductors are all out wrestling with the injured pigs. Just sayin. (Credit to "Animal Weretiger")

It's interesting what's happening here: The Armor Archive has become the witness of an ideological battle about whether or not it is permissible to "re-create" some aspects of medieval life and openly permit modern artifacts like lawn chairs, modern beer bottles, and the like.

It's the age-old struggle between those who don't think material culture has any contribution to the enjoyability of a "re-enactment or re-creation" event and those who believe material culture is important to "being there." It's one of the most surreal discussion topics I have seen in my nigh unto 33 years, and yet, it's par for the course with the SCA: You can find two, or more rational (okay, let's just set aside our baseline freakishness) people diametrically opposed on whether Coleman chairs, Nike shoes, and Miller "High-Life" beer bottles should or should not be displayed openly at an event of an organization ostensibly formed for the purpose of researching, and re-creating aspects of pre-1600 culture.

To those people who hold that such matters are unimportant, and that Coleman chairs, Openly displayed Coke cans, Oakley shades, and so forth are perfectly cool, I say this: It's like saying "Okay, I'm buidling a car. Do I need tires? Yes. Cheese will do. Rubber is correct, but cheese is what I want the wheels to be made of, and well, I need wheels of some kind." And then the car rolls out of the garage and the mice flood forth from every basement in a twelve block radius and eat that car to the ground.

The SCA just sucks as a whole in the "being there" department. It's a sports club and a costume party. I meet some very cool people, very often, and I constantly run across people who astound me with their skill and ability, and their heart, man, their heart! Cripes, Sir Gaston and his cerveilliere, great haume, and helmet crest! By God's Body! Sir Johannes and his great, wonderful gift to a deed of arms he could not attend, which led to another deed of arms which I will remember my whole life through. The spirit of helpful people, all around. But man we just have some ugly "attempts" out there. And sadly, we have some folks just not trying.

It's okay to come to the realization that an organization as large as the SCA, and with the organizational and cultural heritage of the SCA, cannot possibly hope to be excellent in material culture. Or music. Or speech and manners. Not across the board, though individuals and small groups stand out. And it's okay to come to the realization that the SCA cannot possibly hope to be all things to all people. By trying to be all things to all people it runs the risk of being nothing to everyone.

Do these points make any sort of sense?

Jehan de Pelham, squire of Sir Vitus

[Maeryk]

Do these points make any sort of sense?

Perfect sense. ANd we can all only try to do what we feel is right in our part of the world.

If I want to use coleman chairs, Logan will have to live with it, and if Logan chooses not to give awards to mercs, they will have to deal with it. Sooner or later, I will get real chairs, and sooner or later a king will come along who does not hold logans beliefs.

Theres 25K members.. not everyone can choose the same "aspect" (as you said) as their "area"

Maeryk

[Jared]

I saw a flak jacket three weeks ago.

Jehan de Pelham, squire of Sir Vitus

Touche'.

I haven't seen one in quite awhile.

I've seen motocross gear, hockey gear, and various other modernities, but not the flak jacket.

Jared

[Animal]

"Yes, Animal, I know you have tattoos.. but really, if you are in virtually any kind of medieval garb, you should really have sleeves.)"

As a matter of fact I do have sleeves. Full sleeves in fact. As well as a full backpiece, chest work, etc. I'd like to point out that ideally my work would be intircate whorls, animal motifs and geometric designs but this is NOT MY ENTIRE LIFE. I enjoy a well rounded life that consists of art, (I tattoo professionally) music, (I was a concert pianist at the age of 7 and have played in everything from chamber ensembles to hard core punk bands ever since) and a wide range of other interests that all place their own demands on me and mark me in their own individual ways. Being medieval is but one way I express myself and the fact that my tattoos are a sum total of my world is a fact of life. Get over it. How many medieval people had Marine corps haircuts? Yet you see SCA people in the military keeping their hair to regulation because that's another part of their life. Understand that I know it seems like a great deal of credibility and respect will be accorded you once you get your shit straight, but worry about YOUR shit and leave my tattoos and the rest of stuff you cant do JACK about alone.
For the record: When I go to an event I love to see the people that have made efforts to portray their personas well. My friend back home in Pittsburgh named Leonard the younger is an awesome example of how a Viking would look. Every chance I get to talk to someone that has gotten their recreation looking that good is a wonderful opportunity not just to meet someone cool but to learn a bit more about stuff I didnt know. you know, get lead down a different path to knowledge you didnt even expect to come by is a rare treat. Might not be my thing but it's still cool as hell. But you know, when I see some SCA dog with a jaguar suit on, or the guys in the REAL late period stuff with guns and the like that I'm not into at all, i dont make it a point to raise this kind of stink about them. Again. Lots of ways to play this game. Play YOUR game better, let others worry about theirs. Seriously.

[Maeryk]

Might not be my thing but it's still cool as hell. But you know, when I see some SCA dog with a jaguar suit on, or the guys in the REAL late period stuff with guns and the like that I'm not into at all, i dont make it a point to raise this kind of stink about them. Again. Lots of ways to play this game. Play YOUR game better, let others worry about theirs. Seriously.

I getcha Animal. I was thinking more along the lines of the bunnyfur barbarians, or belly dancers (in quotes). If I offended you, sorry..

YOU arent trying to do a 15th C persona, either, cept with blue hair and modern primative piercings. Thats where it REALLY clashes..

BTW: Guns are period to about 1350.. unless you are talking like, cap and ball pistols or something. Gunpowder was an integral part of the german war machine in the 1500s, and I have made it a point to collect and carry a few period examples.

Maeryk

[Jared]

Theres 25K members.. not everyone can choose the same "aspect" (as you said) as their "area"

Maeryk

As I stole from someone else and used yesterday, the problem with the phrase "The Dream" is not the word "Dream." It's "The."

I agree that the Society can suck, Jehan, as far as the experience of "being there" is concerned. On the other hand, sometimes it's wonderful. I live for those times, and try to improve the others.

Apropos of your swine train wreck example, and the nature of this discussion, it began when Duke Alaric raised the issue of maintaining standards of appearance. I've been in the SCA since September of 1972, and I have seen those standards of appearance improve markedly. Unfortunately, with the growth of the organization, not everyone gets the same message as newcomers about which efforts are more important. Not every tradition gets handed down. There are those who come only for the fighting as martial arts, or come to wars only to party and get drunk, and as far as I am concerned they are missing a great deal. Maybe they're enjoying themselves, but that's not the game I joined.

Note to Maeryk: Caid's a litte weird -- we have mostly one day tourneys in the park with a ring of pavilions, day shades really, around the eric. These guys with the uncovered lawn chairs, cigarettes up wind of me and gatorade were in plain sight as people came off the field. As for the fellow with the toothbrush and flipflops coming back from the shower: I'm happy to say I have a 15th century english falconer's robe I use as a shower robe, and sheepskin lined leather slippers my lady made me to wear...<grin>

Yeah, the SCA has some issues to deal with -- the fact that we mix time periods and regions with relative abandon is sometimes difficult. The fact that the litigious nature of the greater society of which we are part makes full-on period fighting styles difficult to manage safely and insuredly a problem. That's why I also fight other places where I can try half-swording and grappling. I have a beautiful full-Milanese-plate suit that I can hardly wear in Caid because it puts me at a 70 pound weight disadvantage to the folks fighting in the lightest armor possible. I save it for pas d'armes and such like. Can you -imagine- the furor if we actually insisted on period kit?

I also, though, think that the people who focus on only one aspect of authenticity (and I'm tarring no one here with that particular brush) and are unclear on others, and view authenticity in that aspect as their sole focus, miss as much as the hardy-partiers.

C'mon gang, the original oath of fealty in the Kingdom of the West, which a number of Kingdoms still use, came from TOLKIEN! This organization is supposed to be FUN as well as educational.

While I will heartily agree that I'm tired of plastic vampires, elf ears, and blatantly modern things in view, I -will- tolerate an effort. A cloak thrown over an aluminum chair; maybe a fabric fence around an encampment of coleman tents (we do that with the members of our household, and there are several, who don't have period-looking pavilions yet; shove the coke or beer can in a leather jack style sleeve, at least; don't flash the modern tattoo at court (I have a tribal raven over most of my back and shoulder that rarely sees the light of day).

Cooking is a problem -- my lady and her protege love to make elaborate meals onsite. This means mostly modern kitchen utensils, though she can cook well over an open fire, trying to cook for 30 sometimes needs more help, and plastic coolers. The kitchen shade we're working on has half-high fabric walls that hide the mundanities but leave her ventilation. We commissioned pottery plates with the household badge on them for feasts.

So, it's an ongoing effort, and I -try- to help other people find -their- way to methods they can both afford and create to improve things.

The whole point of my original comment was that is difficult to find a level of enforcement and someone willing to do it.

Jared

[/b]

[Gaston de Vieuxchamps]

This thread is funny. Thanks guys.

"Have a picture of what they are trying to look like."
Heh, I'd settle for, "Have seen a picture of a person from a time and culture similar to the one I'm trying to do. That's not a joke. I've met "Mongols" who couldn't tell Ghengis Kahn from Miyamoto Musashi if their lives depended on it.

"Tatoos ruin my day." I see tatoos kinda like prescription glasses. It's not something to get upset about. You live this life maybe two days a week, should your lifestlye choices have to be based on it? I don't think so.

As usual, Joachim just doesn't get it.

Thanks again guys.

[Animal]

"I getcha Animal. I was thinking more along the lines of the bunnyfur barbarians, or belly dancers (in quotes). If I offended you, sorry.."

No worries, I'm not offended at all.The bunnyfur barbarians, or 'chuk-a-bes' as we call them are a joke. Belly dancers, well, I'm as much of a guy as anyone I suppose, but what the hell are they doing? Sleepwalking around fires to the beat of elevator music drums isnt cool. Pfeh.

"YOU arent trying to do a 15th C persona, either, cept with blue hair and modern primative piercings. Thats where it REALLY clashes.."

No, I'm not. My own opinion is that Tuchux look like Mongols. Just my take on it. But seriously, who are the people attracted to the SCA? Pretty much everyone. Comp Sci geeks and Dilberts fight along side the punkers, goths and otherwise fringe freaks. You cant be medieval all the time, and your life the rest of the time has to leave some sort of mark on you. Not defending the blue hair, I make fun of the parakeets too, but seriously there's a line there. Again, not offended. Just making observations.



"BTW: Guns are period to about 1350.. unless you are talking like, cap and ball pistols or something. Gunpowder was an integral part of the german war machine in the 1500s, and I have made it a point to collect and carry a few period examples."

I know, and you're right. But the Samurai in me hates the teppo ashigaru just like the knights hate archers. Purely a personal thing.

[Hushgirl]

Tudor ladies with tattoos and nose rings chained to their ears....(shudder)

[St. George]

We all have limits to which we can and/or are able to take the level at which we play in the SCA to. Of course this is moderated by the limits and confines that our real lives put upon us. For many people these limits are based upon decision they made before they ever came upon the SCA- i.e. someone gets a Yosemite Sam tatoo at the age of 18, then joins the SCA- the tattoo just doesn't diappear.

Everyone plays the SCA at a different speed. Everyone has different leves to which they are willing to re-create, but there needs to be a minimum. I think that we all understand that there are certain parts of real life that we cannot leave behind, but I also think that we all appreciate it all the more when we someone who has obvious modernities about their appearance, but does something to make them not so apparent, i.e. removes facial piercings, hides tatoos, covers blue hair, etc, rather than throwing them in everyone's face.

Alaric

PS- Animal, although I think we are closer to being in agreement about a few things rather than not (I am gaining a lot of understanding about this situation and thanks for putting up with me) I have a friend who we used to make fun of all the time, because he was in love with all things Japanese. He would swear that his helmet (a spun top sallet) looked "Japanese" because of the hinged tail on it. He made similar observations about a lot of things- just no one else could see it. Similarly, I just dont see how the majority of Tuchux in mixed armor look like Mongols. If you wouldn't mind, please explain.

[Maeryk]

Similarly, I just dont see how the majority of Tuchux in mixed armor look like Mongols. If you wouldn't mind, please explain.

Umm.. Minimal doesnt look "Mongol". Animal looks MONGOL.

I didnt infer that the Tuchux (et al) were "mongols".. I inferred that Animal was mongol.

The Horde is Mongol.

Tuchux always struck me more as what my minds eye sees when I hear "goth" or "visigoth" or "vandal".

just me.

Not arguing.

Maeryk

[St. George]

Funny- they always struck me as a cros between Wendel (13th Warrior film) and The Humongous from Mad Max.

Alaric

[Maeryk]

Funny- they always struck me as a cros between Wendel (13th Warrior film) and The Humongous from Mad Max.

Alaric

WEll, I never said my minds eye was RIGHT.

But as a group.. no, I dont think they look like much of anything other than hollywood barbarian types, or post nuke survivors.

Individuals IN that group shine through, however.

Course, half the Knights dont look like what my "minds eye" says they should look like either.. thats not to say they are wrong, its a romanticism thing that everyone sets for themselves.

Maeryk
(Im not making this a knights vs us or anything.. that was just the first "what do you think of when someone says..." thing that popped in my mind. And the first thing that pops in is usually Lucky Eddie from Hagar. (I have NO idea why.. maybe its the visored helm)

[Hushgirl]

??

Lucky Eddie wears a funnel on his head.

[Condottieri]

The problem with people that don't try to make an attempt is that they don't care. There should be standards. But telling a person, that does not care, that they have to shape up and dress the part, is like preaching to a deaf person, they just arn't going to hear what you have to say. I am only sixteen, and I haven't even joined yet, but I know I need to look period. I'm going to try my best cause people will recognize effort and praise you for it, but the next guy could just be out there to hit stuff.

Start banning things like hockey gloves and motocross gear. In the rules it even says that hockey gloves are alright, deleate that sentence, and a lot of newcomers won't know it's an option untill they have their mind set on real gaunts. Make simple changes like that, I can already see that the society is not ready for the "no coleman chairs" rule. I don't even think the society would be ready for the "no visable plastic armour" rule.

I say baby steps are needed.

Allow Coleman chairs
Don't allow blue hair
Allow tatoos
Don't allow shirts with big logo's
Allow black Nike (or whatever brand) shoes
Don't allow blue Nike (or whatever brand) shoes

The list could go on and on, and these are all steps in the right direction.

[Maeryk]

??

Lucky Eddie wears a funnel on his head.

You are right. Okay.. is the dude in Hagar or wizard of id? Theres one guy who runs around with a pointy-faced visor with a feather in the top..

Maeryk

[Tom Knighton]

Personally, I really think that it's not a matter of allowances. Everything I have read in Corpora states that the SCA is an organization trying to recreate the Middle Ages. Whether or not you add the phrase "as it should have been" is not important. If the purpose is to re-create the Middle Ages, then why would someone think that a coleman chair is ok? Even if you don't want to research period seating, you could at least KNOW from the start that a nylon chair isn't going to cut it.

The problem as I see it is enforcement. I'm not one of the folks who wrote Corpora, but I get the distict feeling that they wanted a decent attempt, not something thrown together with no regard for what would have ACTUALLY been worn. I honestly don't see how to enforce it, though Duke Alaric's suggestion would do it.

I'll help him in any way that I can. I've already got a whole shire pissed at me, so why not

Bran