Re-write the Requirements for Participants in the SCA

[SirSylvanar]

DarkAngel,

Thats a fair idea, but those of us that hold authenticity in the highest regard are too few and too far apart to have enough contact for a centralized group

[DarkAngel]

Ahhh, then it will probably be quite hard to get the rules changes that you would want.

[Maeryk]

Anyone may attend Society events provided he or she wears an attempt at pre-17th century dress, conforms to the provisions of the By-Laws and Corpora, complies with any other requirements (such as site fees or waivers) which may be imposed by the Society, and behaves as a lady or gentleman. Anyone who wishes to compete on the field of combat is required to wear what appears to be pre-17th centurey garb and armor.

Hey, your Grace.. heres a concept.. start your own goddamn group if you dont like this one, which has seen fit to make you a king TWICE.


Maeryk

[Maeryk]

please drop the whining commentary. nobody is whining. simply put, the rules exist and are in place. while i applaud your efforts many of your buddies dont care about the rules that everyone is expected to follow. beyond that is the blatant disregard for our rules that is an annoyance to no end. if you consider someone having an issue with such behavior as whining i would be disappointed as i thought higher of your character. this is simply a matter of following the rules or going somewhere else.

regards
logan

The "rules" state "AN ATTEMPT" at pre-17th C garb. Not armor. Garb. That is defined as "two tea towels pinned at the shoulders". Granted, thats a joke.. but it IS the rule.

The SCA is the 'big tent' group, from which so many others recruit and have cross-membership.

However, the combat rules, which, for use in the lists, supercede the above rules, merely state you must be within or better than SCA minimum armor standards.. none of which give a time or place or materials, merely give suggestions.

OTOH, you cannot prove that Tuchux armor DIDNT exist at one point or another, so you are no more right in saying "its not pre 17th" than they are saying "it might be pre 17th", and again, I think this whole discussion is pissing in a mighty windstorm.

For all the people who take the chivalry in the SCA seriously, being "king" for six months, or being a pelican or laurel, for each one of them, there are a hundred people who are here to get drunk, wear funny clothes, and hit people with sticks, who could give a wet fart about belts, baldrics, or proclamations from on high.

I would suggest you read your own post, about "following the rules or go somewhere else" and tell me exactly where ANimals buddies (OOWAH!) are _not_ following the posted rules. If they are in fact breaking any rules, by all means enforce them, but the only rule breaking I have seen is the people in charge of Pennsic fighting screwing Xenon badly by declaring that his wheelchair was illegal because of some stupid "wheeled conveyance" rule put into place because several stupid non-tuchux people decided "its not against the rules" and built some war-wagon or something.

Maeryk

who is generally grumpy today.

[Gabriel Morgan]

The 'rules' were not handed down from on high. If people wish to begin a movement to change them, that is certainly their right. It's your right to disagree, but all this childish namecalling is really discourteous.

As for Tu-Chuckers, they do NOT follow your holy rules. Most of them make no attempt at pre-16th century garb. Want proof? Ask one. Simply go up to a Tu-chux 'dog' and say, 'Where you get the idea for your garb? What are you supposed to be representing?' I have, and I didn't hear much history in the various responses.

I personally support any attempt to improve the general look of the Society. Given the almost innumerable variations possible under the rubric 'Pre-16th century Western Culture and any Culture which had Contact with Them', you can hardly argue that the 'big tent' would be shrinking all that much.

[EricvonWald]

Greetings,

What an interesting discussion with many different view points.

I have just recently returned to the SCA after being gone for 8-10 years. At one of the first fighter practices after I had returned, I was speaking with a Duke Sir Sean Kirkpatrick Tarragon. I was in the process of trying to restore my armor. I was talking to the Duke about different things I might try to do to get back on the field. We were sitting on the side lines when this wise gentleman, gentlely and with much grace pointed out how good all of the other fighters looked. The Barony took pride in how good the fighters looked. He encouraged me to take extra time if I needed to to llok good when I returned to the field and not just "get something to get on the field fast."

As many have said, it takes leadership ad guidance from the Peers and trainers to teach new fighters (and returning old ones) the importance of looking right.

As a side note, when I had started in Caid (late 80's), Caid had rule of no blue jeans in the lists. I do not know if they still have that rule or it was just for the peroid of one Crown. I guess the Crown and make rule they want to dress up the field.

Eric von Wald
"It doesn't matter how good you fight. It matters how good you look doing it." - My first Trainer. Yeah, he thought he was a real Lady's Man.

[Hushgirl]

This thread perfectly illustrates the problem.

[Stacy Elliott]

Maeryk,

Wow, in a bad mood today?

Just a bit of clarification.. The list field is part of the SCA event and is also part of the SCA rules. By the rules you must attempt to dress in pre 17th cent. garb, which as clarified above would mean the armor too.

As for your comment

snip:

OTOH, you cannot prove that Tuchux armor DIDNT exist at one point or another, ....

Are you really saying that if you cannot prove it was not worn in pre 17th cent then it is falls within the rules? Come on, do we really need to go down negative logic... short example. (Prove to me that industrial strength lasers were NOT used by the Anglo-Saxon people in pre 17th Cent Europe...)

Just Sayin'

Animal, from what I gather from Logan's posting, he does not like the groups that come to an event just to piss in the punch bowl just because they can.... But I could be wrong.

[Animal]

"As for Tu-Chuckers, they do NOT follow your holy rules. Most of them make no attempt at pre-16th century garb. Want proof? Ask one. Simply go up to a Tu-chux 'dog' and say, 'Where you get the idea for your garb? What are you supposed to be representing?' I have, and I didn't hear much history in the various responses. "

First of all if you came to me with the same attitude I'm getting from your post you wouldnt have gotten from me that my idea of Tuchux garb is essentially early period Mongol, as evidenced by my Del, pants, boots, stuff like that. You probably woulda gotten attitude in return, that you woulndt have been able to handle on the spot, and gone back to your SCA friends and archive and bitched about Tuchux.

Giles, my point is that attitude is a knee jerk habit. It's not what we're about. Truth be told it's more fun at the war fighting well, beating the crap out of whoever gets in front of us and all that stuff. People are gonna have whatever attitudes they want, I cant change that. ALl I'm saying is if you wanna bitch, bitch about current stuff. 5 years ago is 5 years ago. Get over it.

[Maeryk]

Maeryk,

Wow, in a bad mood today?

Yeah, actually I was. *sheepish grin*. SOrry I took it out on ya'll.

Point is, "rules changes"

A) arent going to fix anything. What are you going to do? Start throwing people out for wearing the "wrong garb"?

B) where do you draw the line?

C) wont fly on a top level.. we are the "big tent" and there is ABSOLUTELY nothing keeping you from starting your OWN group under that tent, fully within the rules of the SCA, that has higher standards.

D) the "starving college student" will always be brought up as a reason to not require anything more than the most basic.. and as the largest (though we know it to be a false paradigm) portion of the SCA.

Before we bother changing "the rules" how bout we do some housecleaning first where we can? Lets look to the Knights who should really know better, who show up at dayboard in jeans, a pithy SCA-saying T-shirt and a white belt? How bout the belted fighter who has gorgeous armor but sits in camp in full view with his truck in bike shorts and a t-shirt until its time to dress up for court? THeres a thousand examples which can be taken one by one.

Social pressure will change far more than a "rules" change at this late date. If you show people the advantages of doing things "right" they are less likely to continue doing things "wrong".

Sure.. my armor is plastic.. but its black plastic, and its modeled on a period suit.. it passes the 10 foot rule fine, and is as, if not MORE period "looking" than some of the suits I see on so called "authenticists". Would I be on your "hit list"? Or would the guy wearing the Fox MOTO-X breast protector and hockey shoulders, knees, and elbows, who slapped a tabard over it and fights in a Gladiator style helmet?

Where does that line get drawn, and how EXACTLY do you codify it? Where is the EARLY cutoff? I have friends who run around in nothing but deer-skins and elk hide.. they are pre-historic celts. Would you boot them, as well, even though their leather and furs are more authentic than your poly-cotton machine sewn court garb that hides your sneakers?

Maeryk

[Uilleag]

Maeryk,

Please be careful with the use of the word "you". Everytime I read it, it makes me feel as if you are addressing me personally, even though we do not know one another.

You raise some very good points, and I agree that peer pressure and pats on the back for authentic appearance will generate better long-term results than rules changes. Heck, if we could enforce the standards that already exist, it would make for a more authentic looking evironment. We all work through the areas that we can effect.....I can't effect a change in everyone, but I can effect a change in those around me, at least to a certain extent.

Educational, supportive comments seem to have the best results. I can also empathize with Duke Alaric's statements though. There are times that I'm very tempted to hit folks that refuse to get the clue with a "clue bat"!

[D. Sebastian]

I have friends who run around in nothing but deer-skins and elk hide.. they are pre-historic celts.

And they aren't even in the SCA!!


Seriously,
Some good points.
I think it goes back to Praise in Public and Correct in Private.

It is difficult to approach somoeone you don't know (or sort-of know, or of reknown, or etc) and let them know they may want to consider another choice. It takes moral courage and intestinal fortitude and A LOT of diplomacy, but I charge that we all have the obligation to guide where we may.

I learned my lesson the hard way. I decided at a fighter practice to wear jeans under my kit instead of my trousers. Well, a photographer happened to be there and my pic ended up in the newspaper... wearing jeans. (It still makes me droop my head in shame)

Since then, I've been on a jihad to improve my personal standards of appearance to the best of my ability. It's a long row to hoe, but its my row. I make an effort to help others with their row, but its something that reaps more success with kindness than disdain.

IMHO

[dukelogan]

glad to hear that. as i said i was told that he was the king. that, it appears, was incorrect. thanks for the clarification.

regards
logan

A correction, Your Grace.
That gentleman, in the neon armor and ninja turtles stuff was not the Crown of Lochac at last Pennsic. He is, however a Knight in that kingdom. I have forgotten his name, but the King then was Alaric, shown on the left in this picture. I believe the man on the right in the hat is the owner of the green armor.

i was disgusted at that sight at the best of tourney last year. when i asked what the deal was i was told that he was the crown of lochac. wtf? anyway, i expressed my disgust and said that should something like that be allowed on the field for that tourney again i would resign from it. i was assured that would not happen again.

regards
logan

[Maeryk]

It is difficult to approach somoeone you don't know (or sort-of know, or of reknown, or etc) and let them know they may want to consider another choice. It takes moral courage and intestinal fortitude and A LOT of diplomacy, but I charge that we all have the obligation to guide where we may.

WE have all seen how well "rules" get adhered to. People who intend to flaunt "the rules" will continue to do so.. or do JUST ENOUGH to get by under the rules.. *(Like 100% authentic "garb" just made out of day-glo pink and orange skull print on black fabric).*

The social change takes longer, is nearly impossible to enforce, but works BETTER. My _first_ step would be to not allow merchants to sell things that arent at least reasonably period. Ogami bodice? Nope.. sorry.. like the decolletage lady, but do it in a period fashion. Fantasy weapons? Take a hike. Stop selling musketeer stuff at Pennsic, then claiming that people cannot wear/use it at the same event. That sort of thing. I think there are many many people in this great group who just arent AWARE that what they buy isnt "medieval" of one sort or another.

Thats just my opinion.


Maeryk
(I'm feeling MUCH better NOW!)

[dukelogan]

my issue involves following the rules that are already in place not chaning anything. the sad fact is that the sca has rules regarding dress and behavior but fails to enforce them. some groups enjoy coming to sca events and playing the bad boy part and violating those rules. flaunting their violations as some badge of honor. that is what i have an issue with.

regards
logan

Ok, before I start , I want to state that I'm not a part of the SCA or any other re-enactment club.. Yet. But it seem to me that if enough of the people want to to be in a group with stricter guide-lines. Why don't they all just get together and form a new group. Using similar rules to the SCA but with the more restrictive dress guide lines. Many of the people who want the new changes seem to be SCA pros and know how to run a club like they would want. Just my 2 cents

[dukelogan]

wow you really are an idiot huh? the point alaric is making is that the rules exsist. follow them or go play somewhere else. why is that so hard for you to understand? the concept is very simple so you should be able to grasp it. feh!

and no one made him king toad he earned the opportunity to do that job. or do you not understand that either?

logan

Anyone may attend Society events provided he or she wears an attempt at pre-17th century dress, conforms to the provisions of the By-Laws and Corpora, complies with any other requirements (such as site fees or waivers) which may be imposed by the Society, and behaves as a lady or gentleman. Anyone who wishes to compete on the field of combat is required to wear what appears to be pre-17th centurey garb and armor.

Hey, your Grace.. heres a concept.. start your own goddamn group if you dont like this one, which has seen fit to make you a king TWICE.


Maeryk

[dukelogan]

nice of you to pay attention there. the rules i brought up have to do with dress and behavior. i was not talking about the field in my initial commentary. but to address your pointless rant i would suggest that wearing a tshirt and undisquised motocross shin guards with bumper stickers on your helmet do not constitute an attempt at any level no matter how absurd the person is that thinks so.

logan

please drop the whining commentary. nobody is whining. simply put, the rules exist and are in place. while i applaud your efforts many of your buddies dont care about the rules that everyone is expected to follow. beyond that is the blatant disregard for our rules that is an annoyance to no end. if you consider someone having an issue with such behavior as whining i would be disappointed as i thought higher of your character. this is simply a matter of following the rules or going somewhere else.

regards
logan

The "rules" state "AN ATTEMPT" at pre-17th C garb. Not armor. Garb. That is defined as "two tea towels pinned at the shoulders". Granted, thats a joke.. but it IS the rule.

The SCA is the 'big tent' group, from which so many others recruit and have cross-membership.

However, the combat rules, which, for use in the lists, supercede the above rules, merely state you must be within or better than SCA minimum armor standards.. none of which give a time or place or materials, merely give suggestions.

OTOH, you cannot prove that Tuchux armor DIDNT exist at one point or another, so you are no more right in saying "its not pre 17th" than they are saying "it might be pre 17th", and again, I think this whole discussion is pissing in a mighty windstorm.

For all the people who take the chivalry in the SCA seriously, being "king" for six months, or being a pelican or laurel, for each one of them, there are a hundred people who are here to get drunk, wear funny clothes, and hit people with sticks, who could give a wet fart about belts, baldrics, or proclamations from on high.

I would suggest you read your own post, about "following the rules or go somewhere else" and tell me exactly where ANimals buddies (OOWAH!) are _not_ following the posted rules. If they are in fact breaking any rules, by all means enforce them, but the only rule breaking I have seen is the people in charge of Pennsic fighting screwing Xenon badly by declaring that his wheelchair was illegal because of some stupid "wheeled conveyance" rule put into place because several stupid non-tuchux people decided "its not against the rules" and built some war-wagon or something.

Maeryk

who is generally grumpy today.

[Uilleag]

[quote="dukelogan"]wow you really are an idiot huh? the point alaric is making is that the rules exsist. follow them or go play somewhere else. why is that so hard for you to understand? the concept is very simple so you should be able to grasp it. feh!

and no one made him king toad he earned the opportunity to do that job. or do you not understand that either?

logan

Your Grace,

I want to start by saying that I fully agree with the crux of what you are saying. What I'm having a problem with is the way you are communicating your frustration.

I understand your frustration, and I also understand the point you are trying to make, but calling someone an idiot or a toad isn't the best way to get your point across. As evidenced on this post and in other threads, retaliation and frustration only begets more negitive responses. Then there isn't communication, only added frustration and anger.

Respectfully

[St. George]

Animal- Seems like you are the whiner here buddy.

As far as doing something about it- I have several times. In Caid I didn't allow non-period or non-cohesive suits of armor into my Crown Tournament. In fact I took a lot of crap from people in Caid for doing that.

I also tried to enforce the no-sports gear on the field policy that is already established in the SCA rules. People fought that tooth and nail, just like you seem to be doing right now. And for what reason? You too cool? A rebel? Or you just want to come into this game of the SCA and hit people with sticks?

My bet is that most of the people you hang out with in the SCA are either just plain stick jocks, or similar fringe members like yourself.

I also remember one time when you posted something like "if you want my Madu you can come and take it from me." I think that when I offered to come to your fight practice you posted something like "oh that won't be necessary, I was just kidding." Make up your mind. I wasn't whining then about Madu's, and I am not whining now. I acte on things I don't like. I AM acting on this situation and trying to do something about it. Not only am I posting here, but I am also posting on the various peer, household, and Chivalry boards that I am a part of. I ask them for advice on how to , and I am sorry that this is directed at a lot of your friends, but it is. Most of them look like crap.

This isn't directed at you personally- I know that you look ok, and I know that the Tuchux are making good strides, but they aren't there yet. It is directed at the average guy in your group who dresses like crap, wears a t-shirt or bumper sticker around the field, stuff like that.



Maeryk- you can blow me. The SCA, never once made me king, never- not once, not twice. I made myself King.

If you have a problem with people making the wheelchair illegal, then why don't you do something constructive about it- find a way to make it legal. All I have ever heard is about guys who got hit and injured by the wheelchair, which means that I don't think it should be on the field and used in the manner in which it was either. If the guy wants to fight, let's find a way for him to do so, I think that we are all for that- but not at the cost of the safety of others. One of the problems with someone in a handicapped situation is that they often cannot simply enjoy the game at the same level or in the same way as everyone else out there, but we can work to try an accomodate someone as best possible- a war wagon or similar flying across a field of guys lying "dead" on the ground just might not be that best answer.

Alaric
Who is happy that Maeryk is feeling better

[Maeryk]

wow you really are an idiot huh? the point alaric is making is that the rules exsist. follow them or go play somewhere else. why is that so hard for you to understand? the concept is very simple so you should be able to grasp it. feh!

and no one made him king toad he earned the opportunity to do that job. or do you not understand that either?

logan

Personal attack aside, your Grace, (though you neither show nor embody the term here, to my knowledge) please define "attempt". If those shin pads and t-shirt you listed later are complemented by a drop dead perfect gothic breastplate and a perfect helm, is that not an attempt? Is that not someone who just hasnt the money to complete the kit yet? And I get the impression that you would deny them the right to fight in the meantime?
I would go one further.. I dont care how pretty your tabard is, if you wear modern equipment under it, you are gone as well. Why cheat those who strive for periodocity by allowing you to "get away" with modern improvements that give you an unfair edge?

While you may be harping on "rules" that exist, there is simply no method, either realistically NOR codified in said "rules" that allows enforcement of it. Therefore it is a guideline, not a rule. Sure, the autocrat has the right to bounce anyone from an event for any reason, but even that can come into question.

I say again.. if you want to enforce the "rules", be fully prepared to be asked to leave the event when you are caught between the showers and your camp carrying your shower bag and wearing a bathing suit and a towel, if you are the type to do so.

Or when setting up or taking down your tent in mundanes. Theres a very slippery slope that your knee-jerk reaction to people who either by choice or by financial restriction do not live up to YOUR standards of what pre-17thC garb _should_ be.

Maeryk

[Maeryk]

Maeryk- you can blow me. The SCA, never once made me king, never- not once, not twice. I made myself King.

Wow, proof once again that one too many headshots is a bad thing.

The SCA afforded you with the option of becoming King, is the point I was making. The first tournaments were fought with bicycle helmets and garbage can lids. We have come a long way. But you made yourself the hottest stick on the field that day, the organization made you king, for without the organization, you would be some musclebound stickjock sitting on a stump in his back yard preaching his majesty to squirrels.


I am done with you.

So much for "chivalry".

Oh.. and on an aside, not only do I not swing that way, I have found that people who make that offer are usually making up for their own lack of umm.. weaponry.

Have a nice day.

Maeryk

[dukelogan]

my comments are interspersed and preceded by >>>>>LOGAN

"animal,

please drop the whining commentary. nobody is whining. simply put, the rules exist and are in place. while i applaud your efforts many of your buddies dont care about the rules that everyone is expected to follow. beyond that is the blatant disregard for our rules that is an annoyance to no end. if you consider someone having an issue with such behavior as whining i would be disappointed as i thought higher of your character. this is simply a matter of following the rules or going somewhere else.

regards
logan "

Actually there are a few things here I'll dispute.
First off, whatever the original intent of the poster, this thread and others like it always come off as whining.

>>>>>LOGAN
to you they may come as whining but then you are not concerned about protecting the sca. just like any time anyone says something less than flattering about the tuchux you grab your megaphone and go for it. that, to some seem like whining. but alaric brings up something that is very much on the minds of many that do care about the sca. the tuchux need to remember when they are visiting an sca event, like pennsic, they need to follow the rules of the organization. i certainly would if i went to a tuchux event. but i respect the rules of my host.

It's not a bad thing to strive for accuracy, it's not a bad thing to want to make your stuff cool and enjoy it. What is a bad thing is to go on the internet and cry about people not playing the game your way. Like it or not there are a lot of interpretations to the way your SCA rules are set up. Naturally people would like to use them to their best advantage. My point here is quit whining and DO something about it.

>>>>>LOGAN
first, the rules are very clear regarding appearance. motocross gear, tennis shoes, and t-shirts on the field or chainmaille bikinis off the field violate those rules as clearly as they can. surely you understand that. and, for myself, i did do something about it. i wrote into atlantian law that if you can not present yourself on the field in a manner consistent with the rules for participation already in place you may not participate. nothing about authentic, nothing about balls on exact anything. merely that you appear in a manner consistent with pre 17th century technology. it wasnt a new rule but a clear enforcement of that which is already there. so far as i know nobody has been refused admittance to the field in atlantia since the rule came into effect and people appreciate it.

Secondly, my efforts are not nearly as lonesome as you might think. I believe you and others as well are into the habit of 'Tuchux break our rules' and dont really see the recent past and the steps made by us.

>>>>>LOGAN
you are confused animal. cite one example where i have ever said that tuchux break rules other than the rules of appearance. i too have heard the stories of rules violations on the field and i have seen first hand those that have an agenda against the tuchux and i have defended tuchux in marshals courts while chiding another knight for his clear bias against them. so dont lump me into any category. i dont mind the appearance of most of the tuchux on the field. but off the field i find most to be in gross violation of what the sca is about. and that, as it has always been, is my issue with your organization. but if you think you can cite an example of where i have said anything about tuchux and rules violations aside from dress please let me know.


Its worth a re-examination, seriously. Again, nothing wrong with having issues but crying the same old song is getting a bit old.

>>>>>LOGAN
you are right. it is past time to enforce them. i would start with one warning about proper attire at sca events and then i would throw the violator out on the second one. if that means that 90% of the tuchux cant stay at pennsic i dont care. the rules are clear and should be followed. the blatant refusal to do so is more than enough reason to escort someone to the road. same thing that i did in atlantia with our pitiful appearance on the field. i got tired of hearing people whine and i worked with the crown at the time to start the enforcement of the rules. i get credit for those rules simply because i defined them more clearly. however, it was a collective effort of many.

Personally if I had my way I would see not a bit of plastic on the field. I would see cohesive armor styles that make sense with the people that are wearing them. It sucks to look at some SCA guy on the field and wonder just exactly what he's trying to portray. But that's just my own narrow view. Among our guys we have a mishmash of accurate suits that are cohesive to themselves, and we have some of the 'whatever it takes to get out and fight' types as well. We like black leather, generally earlier period stuff. But certainly no more than a large percantage of SCA guys running arond with no fucking clue whatsoever.
The fact of the matter is that most of the people that I interact with in the SCA on a personal level dont have these issues with garb or armor. It's prevalent here on the archive. And posts like that come off as whiny. Every time. One reason why is that they always seem to wanna bitch, but never seem to offer up an opinion as to how to make such things better. That would reduce quite a bit of the whiny perception. Just sayin.

>>>>>LOGAN
both alaric and i have offered ways to solve the problem. that being enforcement of the rules. do you consider anything i have said regarding this to be whiney?

in closing i hope that all is going well for you guys and that little man of yours. drop me an update on him if you get a chance. i shared your story with some friends of mine that had a preemie (not sure i spelled that right) and they asked about you guys the other day. i realized that i didnt have anything new to tell them.

[St. George]

Maeryk,

Wow, in a bad mood today?

Yeah, actually I was. *sheepish grin*. SOrry I took it out on ya'll.

Point is, "rules changes"

A) arent going to fix anything. What are you going to do? Start throwing people out for wearing the "wrong garb"?

B) where do you draw the line?

C) wont fly on a top level.. we are the "big tent" and there is ABSOLUTELY nothing keeping you from starting your OWN group under that tent, fully within the rules of the SCA, that has higher standards.

D) the "starving college student" will always be brought up as a reason to not require anything more than the most basic.. and as the largest (though we know it to be a false paradigm) portion of the SCA.

Before we bother changing "the rules" how bout we do some housecleaning first where we can? Lets look to the Knights who should really know better, who show up at dayboard in jeans, a pithy SCA-saying T-shirt and a white belt? How bout the belted fighter who has gorgeous armor but sits in camp in full view with his truck in bike shorts and a t-shirt until its time to dress up for court? THeres a thousand examples which can be taken one by one.

Social pressure will change far more than a "rules" change at this late date. If you show people the advantages of doing things "right" they are less likely to continue doing things "wrong".

Sure.. my armor is plastic.. but its black plastic, and its modeled on a period suit.. it passes the 10 foot rule fine, and is as, if not MORE period "looking" than some of the suits I see on so called "authenticists". Would I be on your "hit list"? Or would the guy wearing the Fox MOTO-X breast protector and hockey shoulders, knees, and elbows, who slapped a tabard over it and fights in a Gladiator style helmet?

Where does that line get drawn, and how EXACTLY do you codify it? Where is the EARLY cutoff? I have friends who run around in nothing but deer-skins and elk hide.. they are pre-historic celts. Would you boot them, as well, even though their leather and furs are more authentic than your poly-cotton machine sewn court garb that hides your sneakers?

Maeryk

Pre-historic Celts? LMAO. WTF is that? Have you ever taken a history class? What a straw man response that is anyway. I doubt that they are more authentic than anyone else. I doubt they have any evidence to support what they are wearing. Did they kill the deer themselves? Or did they purchase tanned hides at a store? Are they the correct kind of deer for what a celt would be wearing? Likely no- the fauna of Europe has changed since the time of your so-called "pre-historic" celts and many of hte species that they would have used for leather are no longer living in the region- not that your friends are wearing european hides anyway.



How does black plastic pass the 10 foot rule? What is it a Noble plastics lamellar suit? I can spot those from 50 feet- granted they look better than many other things, but when you work with plastic and are around it for more than 15 minutes, you can start to spot it pretty easily. Especially when it is modeled on a period suit. To be the strength it needs to be for SCA combat, plastic has to be thicker than metal used in the same way- therefore lames look out of proportion, and it generally does not, cannot and will not fit or move the same way as metal.



No, we don't have to throw people out for simply wearing the wrong garb, but we can start to let them know that the wrong garb is not correct. Even though I did not allow sports gear, etc onto the field of my Crown list, or in tourneies during my reign, I have to say that we never disallowed anyone from combat. In fact, it was pointed out to me that the average fighter in Caid had made a real effort to look better, and by the end of the reign, everyone looked pretty good. Sometimes things do take a little "real" pressure. Most people will not work for something if they don't have to and require a little fire under their butts to get them going. The threat that they are going to lose something will often make people bring what they are doing into line with everyone else-

for example- the shinai fighters in Caid looked like crap, and were an embarrasment (mostly). Whenever a news crew or similar would show up at an event it was always the dorky looking people in sweats with skulls painted onto fencing masks playing tag with shinai that they took pictures of (it is never the good looking people or well dressed people at what is peceived as a "freak show" that get filmed it is not good for "news." I got tired of it, as did many other people, especially when we are supposed to be an educational re-creation group. So we told them that we were banning shinai. Within several months, they had created a new fighting form, with good looking outfits, and a period basis for the fighting they were doing. It looks great, it worked out great, but they had to have that impetus placed under them to get them to do it.


Camp is my space- I don't tell people what to do in their camps, and don't expect them to tell me what to do in mine. I would never dream of going to the Tuchuk encampment and telling them to play by SCA rules there- but when they come out into the SCA world, I expect them to play by our game's rules- same as I would do if I would show up at one of their events. I wouldn't bring my coronet, titles, etc, unless asked specifically to show up as Duke so-and so. It isn't right to impose my world on their game, and I would not. Likewise, it isn't right for them to impose their world on my game. We let them be ambassadors of the Tuchuk past time at Pennsic, and many of them are really horrible Ambassadors. Maybe it is time that they started to show us up at what we do- then maybe people would start respecting them more often, or not just think of them as a bunch of mad max reject rabble.


Starving college student, poor, etc does not have to equal CRAP. It just more than often does. A poor person (like myself) can make great armor for almost nothing- and the same with garb if one knows where to buy cheap good fabrics. Being a craftsman takes patience, which too many people do not seem to have anymore. If people take the time to locate tools, and help, they could all look good, because the tools and help are there.

Alaric

[Templar Bob/De Tyre]

Your Graces Alaric and Logan:

As members of the Chivalry, it's commendable that you are trying to find ways to improve the way the Society looks, especially on the field (for perception is everything). I'm not convinced that a far reaching change will happen with any speed, until others of the Order make it their priority. Such influence needs to primarily come from the top, down to be truly effective.

If I may ask, how successful has the call for such improvement been within the Order?

The question (and observation) isn't a slam, but a belief that people will emulate those they look up to.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Maeryk may have an easy solution, that already exists in the SCA -

Households. Guilds. Tournament Companies. The "unofficial" branches of the SCA - there really aren't any rules governing who can form one of these groups, or membership requirements.

This allows like-minded people to do things together. Want the people in your group to be as authentic as possible? Make the rule. Want everyone to do 14th century German cobblers turned soldiers from the city of Birkenstock that force their opponents to don proper footware? Cool!

You can now hold meetings, fight practices, etc in private. Work on the projects you want to as a group, practice formations and tactics you want (as long as it is not an "official" practice under the SCA umbrella - don't advertise in the local newsletter or make it part of the shire meeting).

You could, in conjunction with, or sponsored by, an official SCA group, host an event as rule restricitve as you want ("This event will be a recreation of a 15th Century Sausage Festival held in Baden-Baden. All people attending the event or participating in the Grande Pas D' Wurst are required to wear proper, documentable garb or armor for the time and region, and only use stone-ground mustard.)

BUT - When you participate in SCA events that are more "mainstream", you're going to have to accept that you and yours are just a few more drips under the Big Umbrella with the rest of us - and not get upset with the folks who are doing their thing with the same focus as you -

Except they are doing 8th Century Norse Habadashers turned Bersakrs, dedicated to making everyone don proper Nordic chapeaus......

AND, when people are exposed to cool stuff, or cool people, they tend to follow and emulate that stuff and those people. So the MORE people do to make period looking stuff accessable and cool (and not be "My way or die") about it, the better the SCA will get in terms of appearance.

(Which BTW 0 it has made some pretty big strides in the last 15 years.)


Dilan

[St. George]

It depends on where you live as to how fast it is taking hold. In general I see that there is a general movement in the direction of period rigs. Especially as people see that you can be a top level contender and be wearing a full suit of armor (like Stefan von Dresden, or HRH Kelson of the East).

There are a lot of knights who are getting their groups to a look a lot better too- such as Haus Von Drachenklaue in the East, Darkyard in the Middle, The Spartans in the West, and the Orkneys in Caid. As other people see how good these guys are looking, they are all wanting to jump on the fashion bandwagon.

So it is happening, but there are going to be old stick in the muds, ne'er do wells, and rebels who don't want to change.

Alaric

PS- you raise a good point Dilan, and I think it goes along with what I am seeing happen in the SCA as a whole. The problem is the groups and individuals who go out of their way to no fit in. To use an example from Maeryk (if I can now that he is done with me) the person who shows up in a gothic rig with some motocross shoulders- we all know the guy isn't done with his rig yet- I don't think that anyone is going to chase the guy away- especially when he is among friends. Now if this same guy walks into a tournament where it says no mundane sports gear visible, and those shoulders aren't under a shirt or something, then he is in the wrong.

I think people will give others leeway in times of need, but people need to make an real "attempt" to try and hide things, or look correct, not just throw a tabard over some plastic. Where is that line? I am not sure, but I bet it is similar for everyone, just like in fighting we all accept about the same shot as good or bad, we would all have a "feeling" for when someone is making an attempt or not at looking right.

edited to respond to Dilan

[broinnfinn]

Your Graces Alaric and Logan:

As members of the Chivalry, it's commendable that you are trying to find ways to improve the way the Society looks, especially on the field (for perception is everything). I'm not convinced that a far reaching change will happen with any speed, until others of the Order make it their priority. Such influence needs to primarily come from the top, down to be truly effective.

If I may ask, how successful has the call for such improvement been within the Order?

The question (and observation) isn't a slam, but a belief that people will emulate those they look up to.

This is an observation just based on my experiences as Queen in Meridies. Your local Kingdom mileage may vary. I sat through all three Peerage meetings for seven months. In only one of those circles did the question of appearance as criteria come up.

It was in the Chivalry.

Only the Chiv ever routinely asked "Does the person 'look' like a knight?". They were very conscious of the physical representation of their Peerage on and off the field.

Broinnfinn

[Cuan]

Maeryk:

Did you call Alaric "musclebound"? Now that is funny!

Alaric:

My brother, I know your fingers must have slipped when you typed "blow me" on this list, Your Grace. Maeryk's arguments themselves carry enough obvious misrepresentations of our laws and customs wihout you giving them legs by resorting to vulgarity.

Regards,

Cuan

[St. George]

Maeryk- you can blow me. The SCA, never once made me king, never- not once, not twice. I made myself King.

Wow, proof once again that one too many headshots is a bad thing.

The SCA afforded you with the option of becoming King, is the point I was making. The first tournaments were fought with bicycle helmets and garbage can lids. We have come a long way. But you made yourself the hottest stick on the field that day, the organization made you king, for without the organization, you would be some musclebound stickjock sitting on a stump in his back yard preaching his majesty to squirrels.


I am done with you.

So much for "chivalry".

Oh.. and on an aside, not only do I not swing that way, I have found that people who make that offer are usually making up for their own lack of umm.. weaponry.

Have a nice day.

Maeryk

Say what you mean next time reagrding Crown in the SCA because that is not the way it came across- many of us put a lot of time, effort and money into being Crowned heads of the SCA, not to mention all the training that goes into getting there.

Thanks for the compliment regarding me being muscle bound- I think that is the first time anyone has referred to my 6'1" 162 pound frame as muscle bound, I mean I certainly am not fat, but musclebound is probably 20 -30 pounds form where I am at as well. As for being a stickjock, that is probably in question as well- a stickjock generally doesn't care about the way people look, or have an understanding of the societies we are trying to re-create. Basically, if I were a stick-jock, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Just for your knowledge, I am also well afforded with early SCA history, having had the chance to hang out with many of the original members, and people who have been dukes longer than I have been aliove. I do have an appreciation of the SCA that few people have, and perhaps that is why I am working to change it and make it better. The SCA afforded me an opportunity to become a knight and a king (I won't disagree with that point)- but you are very wrong if you think it gave it to me, I had to earn every bit of it, the good and the bad.

I think the SCA has stagnated, largely due to the rise of video games, and the drop in role-playing and conventions. I hope that maybe some interest in the LoTR movies will spark renewed interest in the SCA, but let us give them the best game possible when they get here. Not a mish mosh of carpet armor and spray painted metal.

"so much for chivalry"- I didn't realize that my chivalry was in question. Please tell me how it is. I could understand if you said "so much for COURTESIE" but you did not, meaning that either my or your understanding of the subject is incorrect. Please illuminate me on this.

Oh.. and on an aside, not only do I not swing that way, I have found that people who make that offer are usually making up for their own lack of umm.. weaponry.

Alaric, the squirrel King

edited because Cuan is right

[Maeryk]

Maeryk:

Did you call Alaric "musclebound"? Now that is funny!

Hey, if the attitude fits.. its more a mental thing than a physical thing.

My brother, I know your fingers must have slipped when you typed "blow me" on this list, Your Grace. Maeryk's arguments themselves carry enough obvious misrepresentations of our laws and customs wihout you giving them legs by resorting to vulgarity.

Exactly _what_ misrepresentations are you speaking of, sir? How do you enforce a suggestion? Even when it has been EXPLICITLY asked that people follow it, there is still no mechanism in place to enforce it.

While it is nice to have pie-in-the-sky dreams by these folks, you arent going to change corpora. Working on a local level, as they have, is a much preferential way to do it. Covering plastic is a great idea. But from what he has said, "plastic" doesnt pass the ten foot rule.. well, neither does stainless, folks. But people will continue to wear it. Its just as non-period an item as saudi-arabian whalebone is, but it goes "clang" so its okay, right?

I have been in the EK for almost 15 years now.. I am not some rank newbie who is flouting his ability to wear bumperstickers. I have invested in a period pavilion, dress armor for my kit, period shoes, and am busy making period wood equipment for my own and other peoples camps to fix up the look. nothing twitches me more than blue haired belly dancers, or heavily tattooed romans.. they are both totally wrong, yet I do NOT let it ruin my fun. Nor do I desire to ruin OTHER peoples fun by forcing MY idea of authenticity down their throats with overbearing rules and regulations, that create a defacto authenticop force to keep tabs on what people are wearing, and force the issue. I have thousands of dollars invested in my SCA experience, and am not even close to being done yet.. Landsknecht stuff doesnt come cheap, even if you do have a seamstress who can make it. But I do not expect anyone else to have to invest like that to share the joy. Even if they are people who do not have the physical skill to "make their own" armor.. but cannot afford the (sometimes) ridiculous prices people charge for "nice" armor. sure.. you can get a good helm for 150 bucks, but that may have a one or two year lead time. Whereas the nice spandy stainless sallet is available NOW for the low low price of 700 bucks.

There are already organizations that exist that do just that, why not use the ones that are already there, rather than try to mold this one, after 30 some years, to change its foundations?

Maeryk

[dukelogan]

i agree with you uilleag in many ways but i have simply grown weary of this guys vitriolic ramblings. he carries himself as an idiot and a toad and has for a long time. his posts to this archive are neither helpful nor intelligent and he likes to stir up the pot for no reason. i often refer to people as skilled, helpful, of high character, courageous, etc since that is how i see them. this one, unfortunately is simple negative.

but i agree with you and perhaps its better to be nice to him and point out his mistakes. i just get tired of seeing them. sorry if my post upset you, it wasnt the purpose of it nor the intent. frustration is an ample way to describe my choice of words.

regards
logan

wow you really are an idiot huh? the point alaric is making is that the rules exsist. follow them or go play somewhere else. why is that so hard for you to understand? the concept is very simple so you should be able to grasp it. feh!

and no one made him king toad he earned the opportunity to do that job. or do you not understand that either?

logan

Your Grace,

I want to start by saying that I fully agree with the crux of what you are saying. What I'm having a problem with is the way you are communicating your frustration.

I understand your frustration, and I also understand the point you are trying to make, but calling someone an idiot or a toad isn't the best way to get your point across. As evidenced on this post and in other threads, retaliation and frustration only begets more negitive responses. Then there isn't communication, only added frustration and anger.

Respectfully

[Maeryk]

i agree with you uilleag in many ways but i have simply grown weary of this guys vitriolic ramblings. he carries himself as an idiot and a toad and has for a long time. his posts to this archive are neither helpful nor intelligent and he likes to stir up the pot for no reason. i often refer to people as skilled, helpful, of high character, courageous, etc since that is how i see them. this one, unfortunately is simple negative.

Good lord you a funny funny man! "vitriolic"? I merely present a counterpoint to what someone is suggesting, and it's "vitriolic". Did i piss in your cornflakes once or something? You carry yourself as a rude person, with little regard for others, and a serious attitude problem. But i am willing to read what you say, and take some of it to heart, without (usually) resorting to name calling. I think we butted heads over the CA issue as well, and that may be where your anger comes from. SOrry if my opinion doesnt fit your worldview. But for someone who feels the need to use an honorary title in their name, you certainly dont appear to care to live up to any of the titles of "chivalry" that are typically discussed on this board. Unless your definition is "hit as hard as I can, dont take shots when I can avoid it, and win at all costs" which is the way you typically post and engage in conversation.

You are free to run your little kingdom any way you want when you are in charge, and I laud that. But that is a far far cry from changing the entire society, as it is and has it has been evolving for 30 years, to satisfy your desire to have the "perfect" medieval group. SOrry. Theres a lot more people involved in this group than just you and the people who agree with you, which is why I suggested starting another group, under the same umbrella, which does things to the nth degree as you seem to wish to do.

If that is vitriolic, then you are just unwilling to see other peoples point of view, and thats a shame, really, for you.

Maeryk

[dukelogan]

well since your tone is much more productive i feel that i should address your questions as they are good ones. my comments are interspersed and preceded by >>>>>LOGAN

wow you really are an idiot huh? the point alaric is making is that the rules exist. follow them or go play somewhere else. why is that so hard for you to understand? the concept is very simple so you should be able to grasp it. feh!

and no one made him king toad he earned the opportunity to do that job. or do you not understand that either?

logan

Personal attack aside, your Grace, (though you neither show nor embody the term here, to my knowledge) please define "attempt".

>>>>>LOGAN
actually i do. the term your grace is a proper and accepted way to address a member of the sca that has successfully served the people of a kingdom twice or more. i have done so four times and earned the title. it does not mean that i have to be nice to people that i feel spew venom and vitriol at every turn.

If those shin pads and t-shirt you listed later are complemented by a drop dead perfect gothic breastplate and a perfect helm, is that not an attempt?

>>>>>LOGAN
no its not. what part of the middle ages are the t-shirt and motocross gear emulating? surely you are smarter than that.

Is that not someone who just hasnt the money to complete the kit yet?

>>>>>LOGAN
so? nobody has a right to fight. the sca is cheap as it is but if you want to play you need to have the gear for it. too poor is not an excuse. armor is not expensive and can be made to look proper without having to break the bank. it only takes effort and that is the base of the problem with this argument. the same goes for those that sit in coleman chairs and suggest that its too expensive to have a period styled seat. sit on the ground! or, better yet, make a bench. ive shown that they can be made for $6 and i have offered to teach those that complain about not having the money, yet buy $25 coleman chairs, how to make them. ive invited them to my shop and have promised to show them how. very few have accepted. why? laziness. personally i am tired of the excuses.



And I get the impression that you would deny them the right to fight in the meantime?

>>>>>LOGAN
yes. you are correct. the same way i would deny someone that couldnt afford a cup, or the guy that wanted to bowl but couldn't afford those horrid shoes.

I would go one further.. I dont care how pretty your tabard is, if you wear modern equipment under it, you are gone as well. Why cheat those who strive for periodocity by allowing you to "get away" with modern improvements that give you an unfair edge?

>>>>>LOGAN
because we arent trying to copy any style of medieval fighting. sca sport combat is its own beast and it has its own rules. i thought that much was clear to everyone but the sca is not a re-enactment group. it is, however, a sport of full contact fighting loosely based on the tournaments of europe in the middle ages. but we dont require plate and we fight with shields and we dont grapple and we throw single shots with single handed swords that defeat our opponents, and on and on and on. you cant simply take one aspect and use it to try to enforce your stance. sca sport fighting has rules and following them should not be optional. do you disagree?



While you may be harping on "rules" that exist, there is simply no method, either realistically NOR codified in said "rules" that allows enforcement of it. Therefore it is a guideline, not a rule. Sure, the autocrat has the right to bounce anyone from an event for any reason, but even that can come into question.

>>>>>LOGAN
in order to participate one must...... did you catch that part? in order to participate. seems pretty clear to me that enforcement is allowed by the rules.


I say again.. if you want to enforce the "rules", be fully prepared to be asked to leave the event when you are caught between the showers and your camp carrying your shower bag and wearing a bathing suit and a towel, if you are the type to do so.

Or when setting up or taking down your tent in mundanes. Theres a very slippery slope that your knee-jerk reaction to people who either by choice or by financial restriction do not live up to YOUR standards of what pre-17thC garb _should_ be.

>>>>>LOGAN
taking the absurd as a way to strengthen your point fails as well. and my reactions are not knee jerk. my position is from someone that has put 12 years of work into this organization, has been a paid member every year, has held almost every officer position there is, has autocratted plenty of events, has marshaled at more, has been a head cook at several, has trained scores of fighters, has served his kingdom four times as her king, has recognized dozens of people for their EFFORT and contributions, have built and or taught people how to build a myriad of stuff to aid their sca experience, have shelled out a small fortune to benefit others in the sca and has taken a lot of crap from ankle biters that refuse to put into the sca yet want everything made easy for them. thats why i feel the way i do about the rules. i follow them and i find it loathsome when people suggest that they shouldnt have to because its inconvenient for them.

Maeryk

not knee jerk at all but purposeful and thought out.

regards
logan

[sarnac]

Hey, your Grace.. heres a concept.. start your own goddamn group if you dont like this one, which has seen fit to make you a king TWICE.


Maeryk

Dude.... No one made Alaric King...except Alaric.
Let that go...

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Alaric -

I agree that there will always be those that either don't care, or get off on being the "bad guys" - or as one Tuchux's website put it "We're everything the SCA is afraid of..." (Uh-huh....right....).

But the improvement IS happening, at least in the Midrealm, IMO. Less and less visible sports gear. The visible plastic I run into is usually in the form of Noble Lamellar (I wear a suit), or Egg armoy gauntlets. The majority of fighters in my neck of the woods DO care about their appearance, but lack the knowledge or skill to improve, and in some cases are reluctant to reallly try, for fear of being grilled for their mistakes, or branded a "Authenticity N***" (a term I despise).

We (those people on this board, and like minded folks) need to do 3 things, IMO.

We need to show people that looking good on the field is FUN, COOL, EASY and AFFORDABLE. Teach at events, open workshops, write articles, etc.

We need to reward people's honest efforts - no matter how short they fall of the actual target, or misguided they are. If we continuosly ding people for every little thing, and not applaud the EFFORT, the effort will quickly not be worth it.

Finally, we need to work on letting people know that "Authenticity Enthusiast" does NOT mean Asshole. And frankly, if I was a new person reading this forum, it would be hard to NOT draw that conclusion from a rather large percentage of the posts - and posters.


BTW - Welcome to the Midrealm! I look forward to fighting you, once my arms heal up....



Dilan