Re-write the Requirements for Participants in the SCA

[St. George]

Maeryk:

Did you call Alaric "musclebound"? Now that is funny!

Hey, if the attitude fits.. its more a mental thing than a physical thing.

My brother, I know your fingers must have slipped when you typed "blow me" on this list, Your Grace. Maeryk's arguments themselves carry enough obvious misrepresentations of our laws and customs wihout you giving them legs by resorting to vulgarity.

Exactly _what_ misrepresentations are you speaking of, sir? How do you enforce a suggestion? Even when it has been EXPLICITLY asked that people follow it, there is still no mechanism in place to enforce it.

While it is nice to have pie-in-the-sky dreams by these folks, you arent going to change corpora. Working on a local level, as they have, is a much preferential way to do it. Covering plastic is a great idea. But from what he has said, "plastic" doesnt pass the ten foot rule.. well, neither does stainless, folks. But people will continue to wear it. Its just as non-period an item as saudi-arabian whalebone is, but it goes "clang" so its okay, right?

Maeryk

Hi Maeryk-

1) I am trying to create a mechanism to enforce the rules that are already in place.

2) by changing corpora this would make it more likely that we could enforce these rules.

3) if you are from the East Kingdom, you know Duke Lucan. He is a good friend of mine, and the head of my household. I was on the phone with him for about an hour yesterday talking about this very thing, i.e how to make more people want to look good, how to enforce the rule that we are currently discussing here, and how to change Corpora.

Changing of Corpora can be done, it simply requires that you have enough pull with the BOD (or win them to your view) to make it happen. This is not an impossibility. Many of us here (Logan, Cuan, myself) have many friends and acquaintances on the BOD. If we all work together, we can try and change Corpora or Society rules, and we have a legitimiate shot at it.

Maybe we have very differing views on this because of our relative different experiences in the SCA- having been King, I know that I can affect things, at least on a Kingdom level. Knowing many Kings, and former Kings, I know that I can help affect things on an SCA wide level. The more help that we have the better. If this is somethign that you want to be involved in- that is good, we need help. If you feel that it is not exactly the direction that you want the SCA to go, that is cool too. The AA is a forum for this kind of discussion, and I rutned to the people here, because I have a lot of friends here who I communicate with, and there are many good people here, who all have valid thoughts about the SCA and fighting/armor. No one is trying to run out the people who are making a "best attempt" but rather we are tired of looking at the peopel who make simply "an attempt." There is a big difference between 19 year old kid who has a spun top helmet and a nylon surcoat and work boots, and a Duke who is wearing blue jeans. I most likely wouldn't kick out the kid, but I would do something about the Duke.

What sucks is that when you try and DO something in the SCA- you get bombarded by people who say "you don't accept enough people" or "you are trying to ruin someone's fun." Fine. If that is the way you want to see it. I am also trying to make the SCA a better place, not just for me, but for everyone involved- and for the future people who might want to join.


Alaric

PS- Stainless is much more period than plastic- there is reasonable evidence to show that many of the alloys coming out of Innsbruck Austria were high in Manganese content, and made steel that was very similar to what we consider "stainless" today.


PPS- please check out a pic of some armor that we are making here:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=27712

we are just starting to make production armor, and the prices are very reasonable.

PPPS- my lady makes excellent landsknecht outfits, and although she charges a fair amount for them, I do not think it is excessive or unfair for the quality level of her work.

[dukelogan]

well caid has always been full over overdressed folks with way too much talent so i cant speak for alaric.

however, here in atlantia we have seen a nice improvement both on and off the field. the rapier community has started to police its own and many of the rapier tourneys now specifically ban modern equipment not required for rapier combat from sight at the field. i also saw recently were our archery marshal has banned modern targets like stuffed barney toys or paintings of jar jar binks on hard targets. the biggest problem the heavy community had was footwear (myself included) and visible pads like knee and elbow pads. most of our knights looked acceptable as did 90% of our unbelted fighters.

so in atlantia it really was more of a little fire under the arse to get people doing what they wanted to do anyway. and giving them 6 months to do it helped ease the growing pains as it were. but to answer your question directly i would offer that most all of our knights were well dressed on and off the field prior to the law being enforced.

regards
logan

Your Graces Alaric and Logan:

As members of the Chivalry, it's commendable that you are trying to find ways to improve the way the Society looks, especially on the field (for perception is everything). I'm not convinced that a far reaching change will happen with any speed, until others of the Order make it their priority. Such influence needs to primarily come from the top, down to be truly effective.

If I may ask, how successful has the call for such improvement been within the Order?

The question (and observation) isn't a slam, but a belief that people will emulate those they look up to.

[Templar Bob/De Tyre]

Your Grace:

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

Out of curiousity, was the change in Atlantia seamless, or did it encounter some bumps?

[Murdock]

It's nice to see all these peers (Bri, Logan, Alaric ect) agreeing with me.

Now here's the thing pointy hatted people ....

You all actually have the authority and precedence to do something!!!!

I can't even get on a comittee on a subject i'm well versed on.
Logan can change his kingdom (which he apparently did).

I complain and i'm a malcontent period nazi, yall complain and it's a peer making suggestions. Now use those majic peer powers!
Avengers assemble, up up and away, and all that kinda thing.

gawd this thread is too long.

[dukelogan]

dilan,

glad to hear the things are looking up in the mid as well. now if i can only get valharic to keep his feet on the ground when he fights......

you are correct in all the ways to accomplish this goal that you have listed. i think that with enough effort and encouragement most people will do just fine. some, and this is where this thread started and should remain focused, need some more firm encouragement. not some whishy washy excuses mongering from people that think anything is acceptable and hide that behind the ridiculous "attempt" argument.

teaching is a huge part of it. you mention that making things is affordable. why some people dont understand that is beyond me. we dont have many classes in atlantia that are really hands on. i have seen many at pennsic and in my travels to other kingdoms events. but we do have a lot of very talented people in this kingdom that open their homes up to anyone interested in learning and showing effort.

recognition for effort is very easy and often easy to overlook. during my last reign we tried to make it a point to praise new comers to the sca on their projects and their efforts. we also have several small tokens and a few awards that the king and queen can hand out to those that inspire them through said efforts. i think it makes a difference and have met many people that felt unsure of what they were doing and whether it was good or not. i also learned a lot from them as well.

unfortunately there are a lot of people that mistake the sca as a medieval re-enactment society and think that things must be as authentic as possible. what is more important is to make things appear to be from the middle ages and that we make that believable. some things simply do not even begin to project that and yet some people think that should be acceptable.

regards
logan

Alaric -

I agree that there will always be those that either don't care, or get off on being the "bad guys" - or as one Tuchux's website put it "We're everything the SCA is afraid of..." (Uh-huh....right....).

But the improvement IS happening, at least in the Midrealm, IMO. Less and less visible sports gear. The visible plastic I run into is usually in the form of Noble Lamellar (I wear a suit), or Egg armoy gauntlets. The majority of fighters in my neck of the woods DO care about their appearance, but lack the knowledge or skill to improve, and in some cases are reluctant to reallly try, for fear of being grilled for their mistakes, or branded a "Authenticity N***" (a term I despise).

We (those people on this board, and like minded folks) need to do 3 things, IMO.

We need to show people that looking good on the field is FUN, COOL, EASY and AFFORDABLE. Teach at events, open workshops, write articles, etc.

We need to reward people's honest efforts - no matter how short they fall of the actual target, or misguided they are. If we continuosly ding people for every little thing, and not applaud the EFFORT, the effort will quickly not be worth it.

Finally, we need to work on letting people know that "Authenticity Enthusiast" does NOT mean Asshole. And frankly, if I was a new person reading this forum, it would be hard to NOT draw that conclusion from a rather large percentage of the posts - and posters.


BTW - Welcome to the Midrealm! I look forward to fighting you, once my arms heal up....



Dilan

[dukelogan]

thus far i have not heard of a single time someone has not been allowed on the field because of the new rules. the kingdom was given 6 months to comply and there was a fair amount of discussion during that time. the exceptions to that have been few and far between. in fact i only heard two people complain about it and they arent well know for effort anyway.

regards
logan

Your Grace:

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

Out of curiousity, was the change in Atlantia seamless, or did it encounter some bumps?

[Maeryk]

Hi Maeryk-

Howdy yer Grace! (Once again, sorry about the tone of my first post.. I have been going through so much local "change this change that" crap that I am getting REALLY cringy about changing things, rather than quietly directing things)

1) I am trying to create a mechanism to enforce the rules that are already in place.

Gotcha. And I can agree with that. Much like "The problem with "The Dream" is not "Dream" it is "The", the problem with "the rule" is the word "attempt". That is the rule, correct? Now.. according to the dictionary here,

"To try to perform, make, or achieve: attempted to read the novel in one sitting; attempted a difficult dive.
Archaic. To tempt.
Archaic. To attack with the intention of subduing.

n.
An effort or a try.
An attack; an assault: an attempt on someone's life.

Who defines the level to which "attempt" means anything? Obviously, you and Logan have stated widely disparate ideals on the definition thereof.. for you, the 19 year old in the spun top and plastic would be politely encouraged, for Logan he would be told if he doesnt make "real" armor he's lazy and has no right to fight. So whose definition would it be? And would that change? Would it be your definition for three years, which many people would have a better time living under, then suddenly switch to Logan's draconian attitudes? Can you see what I am getting at here?

) by changing corpora this would make it more likely that we could enforce these rules.

What _exactly_ would you change? Seriously. Have you ideas yet? how would you word this? how restrictive is it? Are going to sweepingly ban mongols, japanese and chinese, as we enforce the "western" or are we going to concentrate on "pre-17th C". Where is the cutoff? Is it 1650, as some sources suggest, due to fashion trends, or is it midnight, dec 31, 1601? Where does it fall? I am _not_ trying to badger you here, I am trying to understand your thinking and how you would go about it.

) if you are from the East Kingdom, you know Duke Lucan. He is a good friend of mine, and the head of my household. I was on the phone with him for about an hour yesterday talking about this very thing, i.e how to make more people want to look good, how to enforce the rule that we are currently discussing here, and how to change Corpora.

Yes, I know the once and future king. *grin*. And from my recollections, he is a perfect example of someone who has been moving forward and looking better for years. As have a LOT of people in the East.. its getting there, just slowly.

Maybe we have very differing views on this because of our relative different experiences in the SCA- having been King, I know that I can affect things, at least on a Kingdom level. Knowing many Kings, and former Kings, I know that I can help affect things on an SCA wide level.

Yes, you can, and yes, we might. However my biggest fear is stagnation. As someone else pointed out, the SCA _IS_ stagnating. Our "recruitments" are down, and while I cherish the old growth here, new growth is always needed to keep something vibrant and youthful.
Anything that would make the bar much higher is only going to convince people to not even try it on, simply because of the difficulty of obtaining the required schtuff for a "trial run". So any "change" to corpora or customs would have to be carefully worded and applied, so we arent running people off. A lot of people are turned off by the high level of auth. required by some of the other groups, and we tend to catch them on the way out. And many of them are extremely productive and good members, even if they ARE occasionally seen tearing around in a nylon sundress.

What sucks is that when you try and DO something in the SCA- you get bombarded by people who say "you don't accept enough people" or "you are trying to ruin someone's fun." Fine. If that is the way you want to see it. I am also trying to make the SCA a better place, not just for me, but for everyone involved- and for the future people who might want to join.

I wasnt saying that, and I apologize if it came off that way. But the SCA is a volunteer organization.. so it is ALL of our organization. The area of effect may be larger for kings, but they typically still pay the same membership fees, etc. Now, I was all for pay-to-play and got horribly attacked and lambasted on the EK list for it, how DARE I suggest people pay to support the organization, etc.. but I think a vested interest in the group would do a lot to help trim the "fringe" that is only there cause its a 5 dollar fee for a great party for the weekend.

PPPS- my lady makes excellent landsknecht outfits, and although she charges a fair amount for them, I do not think it is excessive or unfair for the quality level of her work.

So does mine. Is yours on the yahoo group german-ren costume? If so, she knows my wife via posts. And while I think a hefty amount of money is quite worth it for a properly done outfit, I also dont think that kind of outlay should necessarily be required for someone who is doing this to "try it on". Nor do I think 25 hours in someones shop, building a "period" suit of armor so they can take three shots and decide they REALLY dont wanna do this is a suitable request either.

I certainly dont have the answers, but look forward to your response.


Maeryk
(squirrels like peanuts)

[Animal]

Alaric:
In the interest of keeping it light, not starting a flame war over the internet and overall trying to act with some semblance of dignity I responded to you concerning my madu in the fashion I did. Apparently you mistook my maturity for weakness. My response to you at this point is: Bring it.

As to the issue at hand I am total agreement as to the look on the field. I get tired of the same old bullshit from the same people. Again. Bring it.

[dukelogan]

it is painfully apparent that you really have no idea what you are talking about maeryk as i have never said nor suggested anything like that. i have never suggested that someone fight in a totally period suit of anything. and, in fact, plastic is allowed in certain circumstances. try educating yourself on my position before you attack it with false accusations. the rules that i wrote into law in "my little kingdom" can be found at:

http://marshal.atlantia.sca.org/Rules/B ... odern.html

they dont support anything you attribute to me at all.

logan

Who defines the level to which "attempt" means anything? Obviously, you and Logan have stated widely disparate ideals on the definition thereof.. for you, the 19 year old in the spun top and plastic would be politely encouraged, for Logan he would be told if he doesnt make "real" armor he's lazy and has no right to fight. So whose definition would it be? And would that change? Would it be your definition for three years, which many people would have a better time living under, then suddenly switch to Logan's draconian attitudes? Can you see what I am getting at here?

[Maeryk]

it is painfully apparent that you really have no idea what you are talking about maeryk as i have never said nor suggested anything like that. i have never suggested that someone fight in a totally period suit of anything. and, in fact, plastic is allowed in certain circumstances. try educating yourself on my position before you attack it with false accusations. the rules that i wrote into law in "my little kingdom" can be found at:

Okay.. so was I wrong in thinking these came from you?:

no its not. what part of the middle ages are the t-shirt and motocross gear emulating? surely you are smarter than that.

so? nobody has a right to fight. the sca is cheap as it is but if you want to play you need to have the gear for it. too poor is not an excuse. armor is not expensive and can be made to look proper without having to break the bank

ive invited them to my shop and have promised to show them how. very few have accepted. why? laziness.


yes. you are correct. the same way i would deny someone that couldnt afford a cup, or the guy that wanted to bowl but couldn't afford those horrid shoes.

have shelled out a small fortune to benefit others in the sca and has taken a lot of crap from ankle biters that refuse to put into the sca yet want everything made easy for them. thats why i feel the way i do about the rules. i follow them and i find it loathsome when people suggest that they shouldnt have to because its inconvenient for them.

Sounds considerably more draconian and restrictive than what Duke Alaric has presented.

Maeryk
(I'm only judging you on YOUR OWN WORDS Logan.)

[Vermin]

Maybe this will make some of you feel a little better-

Maeryk helped me in my attempt to rid Pennsic of the "undead".

Once upon a time there were many vampires at Pennsic.
It pissed me off.
It pissed alot of us off.

Maeryk had a set of fake fangs.
(But he didn't wear them around, mind you...)

So I "staked" his ass to the ground outside of Vlads.
In a VERY LOUD AND OBVIOUS MANNER.

I ate A LOT of shit for this (Seriously, you have NO idea...), but didn't give a crap, because-

#1- It was really fun, lots of tempers flared, many people got angry.
This often happens when I attempt to "help".

#2-This FORCED alot of "officials" to actually DO something, and sure enough, next year there was a ban on vampy stuff, put in place by King Bjorn.


So, the lesson is this- When in doubt, stake 'em.

People notice things like that.


VvS

[Maeryk]

I still have the stake, too, Vermin, that you made. WIth the cross on one side, and the star of david on the other, "just in case".

And Mandy still has the scar, cause TJ shouldnt stake drunk, no matter what.

HEEE! That was a hoot.

House Van Helsing.. har har.

Maeryk

[ColinG]

the rules that i wrote into law in "my little kingdom" can be found at:

http://marshal.atlantia.sca.org/Rules/B ... odern.html

they dont support anything you attribute to me at all.

logan

Logan,

I just re-read these rules and am now thinking back to the ninja turtle guy you mentioned in another post. Assuming this guy has armour made out of period materials using period colors with a otherwise period helmet and passed heraldry that gives him the right to wear a ninja turtle on his shield or helmet, what should a marshal inspecting this guy do? While I'd prefer he not play I'm not sure this rule would prohibit his fighting that day. It seems the "spirit clause" was designed to cover that but I'm not sure it does (in the above case). Thoughts?

Colin

[Charlotte J]

or are we going to concentrate on "pre-17th C". Where is the cutoff? Is it 1650, as some sources suggest, due to fashion trends, or is it midnight, dec 31, 1601?

Completely irrelevant sidenote:

The end of the 16th c. would be midnight, Dec 31st, 1600. January 1st, 1601, is the 17th c.



Back to lurking,

Charlotte

[jester]

I suggest an experiment my Lords and Ladies. Someone needs to hold an event at which the higher dress standard (whatever dress standard you think is appropriate) is enforced. Make sure you announce it in advance. And let us know how it works. How many people attend? Is the atmosphere noticeably better? (I, for one, will accept your judgement in this regard.) How many new people showed up?

If we are going to enforce higher standards for the entry level folks then we need to set up the SCA as a bona-fide educational group. We (the organization, not a few particularly dedicated individuals) need to be able to hand out patterns, fact sheets on fabrics, and the time and place where the new persons soft-kit group meets each week.

The Society's governing documents claim that our members re-create aspects of the Middle Ages. Exactly which aspects are not specified. So we might have the guy in a T-Tunic, sweatpants, and lightly modified mocassin boots who can discuss Charny in intelligent detail. The costuming laurel in the nylon dome tent.

I'm all for cutting back on the vampires, bunny fur barbarians, and people displaying more than 1 square yard of flesh but I don't think this is the way to go about it. How about the highlander samurai? Or the pirates? Or the care-bear pelt vikings? Guys in a black cape, shorts and tennis shoes have, by any standard, not made an attempt at pre-17th Century clothing. The same applies to the folks in bunny-fur bikinis and the goth crowd. The rule already exists, but the officers of the Society have largely chosen not to enforce it. It's easier than dealing with the inevitable conflicts that enforcing the rule would create.

[Trystan von Adler]

I must apologize now, I am work without time to fully read all the posts. So forgive me if this has been stated. I agree we need to have a higher standard, but not all our friends can drop $1000 for a pavillion, then all the other items of a camp and garb at once. One quick move and we lose alot of good folks who need correction and help. I will be the first to stand in between someone looking down thier nose at another saying they are not SCA material by the way he looks alone without knowing the person or their ideals. That said, I too need improvement, but have another idea. We live in a capitalist county. Use what appeals to us most, money. If I said that a group would go around judging encampments at an event and give rebates or rewards for a period looking encampent over a non-period one, then some may be motiviated. We still have those who are not "in the zone", but those who want to will show thier improvements over time and earn the rewards as well. I know, a non-period surcharge sounds dumb, but if money motivates? If I could shell out some cash at tax time, get a nice pavillion or yurt and save money for the rest of the life of that pavillion, it may be worth it.

If not monetarily, I know of some events where more period pavillions get the premier camp spots. That is another good way to motiviate people. If I have to walk 1 mile to the field in armor before and after fighting, I am going to do my best to camp next to Duke So-and-so! Also, groups that are small seem to suffer the most. I have seven fighters where I am at and about 5 non-fighters. Not all are authroized or memebers, some new, others not fully involved. The local shire went inactive now and we are left to travel away for help. Maybe there is more the Society can do, but I don't know what. Somtimes I think a few are more motivated by thier greed than the ideals of helping a fellow re-creationist out.

My last little jab is this. The rules also say to act as ladies and gentlemen (Corpora, pg4), that you must be acceptable to the Sovreign (Corpora, pg 26), and combatant must behave in a knightly and Chivlarous manner (Corpora, pg 26). Some fighters seem to thin kthe Corpora is only about administration. I don't want to hear, "Its not period for me". Sorry, don't care. You agreed to play by the rules (signed the waiver), so act decently on and off the field. <takes meds> Sorry, flamed. By now I could have read all the posts and seen you all wrote the same thing.

[ColinG]

I suggest an experiment my Lords and Ladies. Someone needs to hold an event at which the higher dress standard (whatever dress standard you think is appropriate) is enforced. Make sure you announce it in advance. And let us know how it works. How many people attend? Is the atmosphere noticeably better? (I, for one, will accept your judgement in this regard.) How many new people showed up?

We call that 12th Night and it happens every year (I believe most every kingdom hosts one?). Usually pretty well attended with a wonderful jovial atmosphere. Seriously, no one attends 12th Night looking like a scrub. Of course, there is usually no fighting...

Colin

[Maeryk]

The end of the 16th c. would be midnight, Dec 31st, 1600. January 1st, 1601, is the 17th c.

aww CRAP! Thats what I MEANT to say. *sigh*

I was thinking 1599, and typed 1600, already way ahead of my own argument. Thanks for pointing it out!

Maeryk

Maeryk

[dukelogan]

ok then i guess we agree to disagree. if i understand you correctly you are saying:

t-shirts are ok for the sca

visible motocross gear is ok for the sca

people have a right to fight in the sca

armor is expensive and can not be made to look proper without breaking the bank in the sca

people that claim to need help making things and are invited to do so with instructions, tools, and assistance yet dont put forth the effort to take advantage of these offers are not lazy in the sca

and that the rules that state, very clearly, that the appearance of pre 17th century technologies mean nothing in the sca

that pretty much sum it for you? i am sad to hear that after you have been around for 20 whatever years.

but that kind of attitude is why people are not concerned with following the rules. oh well. and yes, those are all quotes from me. and? you conveniently didnt comment on the fact that you attributed restrictions to me when they clearly dont fit in with reality. whatever. if you really think that ignoring rules is fine i wish you the best of luck. but i will maintain a lowered respect for you because of it.

logan

it is painfully apparent that you really have no idea what you are talking about maeryk as i have never said nor suggested anything like that. i have never suggested that someone fight in a totally period suit of anything. and, in fact, plastic is allowed in certain circumstances. try educating yourself on my position before you attack it with false accusations. the rules that i wrote into law in "my little kingdom" can be found at:

Okay.. so was I wrong in thinking these came from you?:

no its not. what part of the middle ages are the t-shirt and motocross gear emulating? surely you are smarter than that.

so? nobody has a right to fight. the sca is cheap as it is but if you want to play you need to have the gear for it. too poor is not an excuse. armor is not expensive and can be made to look proper without having to break the bank

ive invited them to my shop and have promised to show them how. very few have accepted. why? laziness.


yes. you are correct. the same way i would deny someone that couldnt afford a cup, or the guy that wanted to bowl but couldn't afford those horrid shoes.

have shelled out a small fortune to benefit others in the sca and has taken a lot of crap from ankle biters that refuse to put into the sca yet want everything made easy for them. thats why i feel the way i do about the rules. i follow them and i find it loathsome when people suggest that they shouldnt have to because its inconvenient for them.

Sounds considerably more draconian and restrictive than what Duke Alaric has presented.

Maeryk
(I'm only judging you on YOUR OWN WORDS Logan.)

[dukelogan]

there is nothing in the rules that states the armor must be made out of period materials nor the helm be made in a period fashion. but i understand what you are asking.

colin i would say he fails on several accounts:

General:
1. The fighter should appear as a reasonable example of a warrior from the SCA's period of study (Pre-17th Century focusing on Renaissance and Middle Ages, per Corpora) to the casual observer.

no casual observer would see that fool and think that he is supposed to be a medieval persona. not even close. not sure if you saw him or not though so that might not be as evident to you as it is to me. so i think he fails there


Unacceptable Items:

2. Uncovered carpet armor, undisguised sports gear, "blue jeans", military type fatigues, obviously-modern footwear, uncovered hockey gloves and all other undisguised equipment clearly "modern" in nature from 10 feet distant are explicitly banned from the field. This also includes items displaying visible commercial logos and bumper stickers.

i would say that a ninja turtle would fail due to its be easily recognized as a modern commercial logo. not to mention in poor taste but hey, we cant call him on that.


Covering:
2. The spirit of the law includes making a reasonable attempt to recreate the appearance of items that would be used or worn in a melee or tournament in Europe prior to the 17th century in the periods commonly referred to as the Medieval or Renaissance.

i would say that there is a clear case to be made on this one and that he would be banned from the field.




additionally a case could be made against his helmet which was painted in a very bright day glo orange. i would bounce him for that (i know that is written into the law as well but im just not seeing it). either way it certainly violates the spirit of the law and therefore would be bounced. so i think the guy fails on many counts in both spirit and letter. i was ashamed to see him on the field as a brother knight and upset that he was even allowed to fight in that tournament. when i expressed my disgust at the spectacle to one of my fiends that is in charge of that tourney he assured me that gentleman would not be allowed to fight in that kit again. im glad because i enjoy fighting in the best of the known world tourney and hope to be fortunate enough to win it again. but i would not fight in it were he allowed to in that kit.

do you disagree with my thoughts on the rules colin? if so i would love to hear why. we tried very hard to be clear without painting ourselves into a corner and the "law" actually isnt kingdom law. it was purposefully written into the earl marshals policy so that changes could be made quickly in the case of something being unfairly restrictive (hasnt happened yet) or someone trying to play rules lawyer and come up with something to violate the letter and spirit and use the current rules to defend that violation.

ive heard nothing but positive accounts of the changes that have been made and i have received tons of emails praising the rule and people sharing what they did to fix things up. my own squires did some fantastic work on their footwear and they feel very proud of the effect it has on their appearance (course you know they are the best dressed squires in the sca ). anyway, i would love to hear of any concerns you might have regarding what ive suggested. the ultimate decision on something like that is in the hands of the marshalate and then trms. but we dont have that problem here in atlantia so i dont think i would worry about that ever happening here.

plus i doubt he could get a "ninja turtle" passed by the heralds office anyway.

regards
logan

the rules that i wrote into law in "my little kingdom" can be found at:

http://marshal.atlantia.sca.org/Rules/B ... odern.html

they dont support anything you attribute to me at all.

logan

Logan,

I just re-read these rules and am now thinking back to the ninja turtle guy you mentioned in another post. Assuming this guy has armour made out of period materials using period colors with a otherwise period helmet and passed heraldry that gives him the right to wear a ninja turtle on his shield or helmet, what should a marshal inspecting this guy do? While I'd prefer he not play I'm not sure this rule would prohibit his fighting that day. It seems the "spirit clause" was designed to cover that but I'm not sure it does (in the above case). Thoughts?

Colin

[ColinG]

do you disagree with my thoughts on the rules colin? if so i would love to hear why. we tried very hard to be clear without painting ourselves into a corner and the "law" actually isnt kingdom law. it was purposefully written into the earl marshals policy so that changes could be made quickly in the case of something being unfairly restrictive (hasnt happened yet) or someone trying to play rules lawyer and come up with something to violate the letter and spirit and use the current rules to defend that violation.

ive heard nothing but positive accounts of the changes that have been made and i have received tons of emails praising the rule and people sharing what they did to fix things up. my own squires did some fantastic work on their footwear and they feel very proud of the effect it has on their appearance (course you know they are the best dressed squires in the sca ). anyway, i would love to hear of any concerns you might have regarding what ive suggested. the ultimate decision on something like that is in the hands of the marshalate and then trms. but we dont have that problem here in atlantia so i dont think i would worry about that ever happening here.

plus i doubt he could get a "ninja turtle" passed by the heralds office anyway.

regards
logan

No, no. I'm definitely for the rules and was in fact a "enforcer" at Ymir this year. We were instructed to "advise" fighters of perceived "deficencies" with warnings that "in the future, that item will not pass" and to get it corrected. For those I inspected, everyone was going above and beyond the call to combile. The only problems really where those people wearing black jump boots (nylon and leather) instead of black combat boots (just leather) and complaining that they thought they were exempt. That one is hard to explain but we got through it.

Colin

Sidebar #1: I love the "knee marker" on Shay's legs. What an excellent way to let marshals and opponents see where your knee is when wearing full pants that covers leg armor.
Sidebar #2: Please don't get me started on the heralds.

[Tom Knighton]

Just a note about "ruining someone elses fun". There are people in the SCA that actually get upset at those of us who want to be more authentic in our own impression as ruining thier fun, when we haven't said squat about thier stuff. It does happen.

People talk about Authenticity Nazi's and how they ruin other people's fun, but you know what? There are T-tunic and kegger nazi's out there too who want ME to play THIER game. I won't go into details here. If you want to know more, contact me privately.

The fact is, it would sure as hell be nice to know that the SCA wants to live up to what they claim to be. I don't give a damn WHY they decided to call themselves a Non-profit EDUCATIONAL organization. I do care that they start acting like one. Duke Alaric's suggestion is an effort to cause that change to happen. I support it fully.

Duke Alaric, please let me know if I can help in any way.

Back to the subject at hand, there are differences in a resonable attempt. We had a gentle here who came to in first event. He had made a "resonable attempt" with modified scrubs. Not period at all, but it was the best he could do in that situation. However, if Duke Sir Master Master Whatchamacallit were to wear that, then it wouldn't be a resonable attempt. Time changes what is resonable. What was resonable when I first started isn't resonable now 7 years later. What is resonable now won't be resonable in another 7 years. The attempt should evolve. I believe that is was both Duke Alaric and Duke Logan mean (if I am wrong, then please feel free to correct me).

To long have folks come into the SCA, worn a crappy t-tunic and jeans and then gone home to talk about how they are re-enacting the Middle Ages (there are people who do this, I've heard them). We need to do something about that. I like some of the bottom up approaches, but what do you do when you meet hostile resistance? Even if you are only trying to hold YOURSELF to those standards?

The top down approach won't work on it's own, mostly because of the crapstorm that will stir up. There will be people who will resist it just for the sake of resisting it. If you boot them, then they will become a sort of martyr. God knows we don't need that.

I really think that the overall best approach would be a "meet in the middle" approach incorporating both. But what do I know, I can't seem to get squat done.

Bran

[Asbjorn Johansen]

Yes, you can, and yes, we might. However my biggest fear is stagnation. As someone else pointed out, the SCA _IS_ stagnating. Our "recruitments" are down, and while I cherish the old growth here, new growth is always needed to keep something vibrant and youthful.
Anything that would make the bar much higher is only going to convince people to not even try it on, simply because of the difficulty of obtaining the required schtuff for a "trial run".

(squirrels like peanuts)

Maeryk,

My experience is that we loose many people for just the opposite reason. I’ve had several people who were interested until the saw the exposed plastic, the modern sports equipment, the comic book characters on the shield. Most of these folks had no more then a passing knowledge of history, but they knew the obviously modern objects were wrong.


Asbjorn

[Thomas Gallowglass]

I shall quickly note that I'm not SCA, but interested. From this thread I think that I agree with much of what DukeLogan is saying, and this really struck me.

General:
1. The fighter should appear as a reasonable example of a warrior from the SCA's period of study (Pre-17th Century focusing on Renaissance and Middle Ages, per Corpora) to the casual observer.

I observed the recent Estrella War, and am toying with the idea of attending Pennsic. But at Estrella one fighter that caught my eye was a gentleman who appeared to be a Lakota Warrior from the 1850's. (see photo at http://www.tomeistudios.com/pictures/open0057.html ) Would this fit the above mentioned rule?

I am trying to understand more about the SCA, but would likely have to move to really become a participant.

[dukelogan]

while i applaud his efforts and all i dont think that he should be on the field as is. of course i am only judging this by the head shot provided. i would ask him what he is portraying with that helm. i dont think i would bounce him from the field but i would strongly suggest he try to focus on something more appropriate. again, this is only going by the head shot.

if you come to pennsic this year please feel free to stop by my camp some time. ask at the gate where n22 is (thats the block im on) an then go to that block and ask anyone on it to point out my camp. we have a large (18 x 30) tudor façade facing the road and we will be on the right. beer is on me and i will be happy to show you around and talk sca stuff with you.

regards
logan

I shall quickly note that I'm not SCA, but interested. From this thread I think that I agree with much of what DukeLogan is saying, and this really struck me.

General:
1. The fighter should appear as a reasonable example of a warrior from the SCA's period of study (Pre-17th Century focusing on Renaissance and Middle Ages, per Corpora) to the casual observer.

I observed the recent Estrella War, and am toying with the idea of attending Pennsic. But at Estrella one fighter that caught my eye was a gentleman who appeared to be a Lakota Warrior from the 1850's. (see photo at http://www.tomeistudios.com/pictures/open0057.html ) Would this fit the above mentioned rule?

I am trying to understand more about the SCA, but would likely have to move to really become a participant.

[Thomas Gallowglass]

if you come to pennsic this year please feel free to stop by my camp some time. ask at the gate where n22 is (thats the block im on) an then go to that block and ask anyone on it to point out my camp. we have a large (18 x 30) tudor façade facing the road and we will be on the right. beer is on me and i will be happy to show you around and talk sca stuff with you.

regards
logan

I would be delighted. If I can make it I'll bring what I have for gear and ask to be shown a bit of combat, if that's appropriate for a has-been warrior.

[Uilleag]

[quote="dukelogan"]i agree with you uilleag in many ways but i have simply grown weary of this guys vitriolic ramblings. he carries himself as an idiot and a toad and has for a long time. his posts to this archive are neither helpful nor intelligent and he likes to stir up the pot for no reason. i often refer to people as skilled, helpful, of high character, courageous, etc since that is how i see them. this one, unfortunately is simple negative.

but i agree with you and perhaps its better to be nice to him and point out his mistakes. i just get tired of seeing them. sorry if my post upset you, it wasnt the purpose of it nor the intent. frustration is an ample way to describe my choice of words.

regards
logan

Off-thread a bit, sorry for the interuption, but I feel strongly about this, but don't need an entire thread to say it....

Your Grace Logan,

I thank you for your words to me, and I truly know where you are coming from. I have been chastised in my home kingdom for having a good heart but a sharp/sometimes overly quick tounge. I am really trying to learn to do better, and that is why I felt I had to say something to bring out the point.

What I'm most grateful for, regardless of whose words brought it about, is that there is now an actual conversation going on. Ideas are being expressed, listened to and responded to in a thoughtful manner. Yes, there is still disagreement, but folks are communicating....

Your Grace Alaric,

Thank you for taking a moment and rethinking/editing some of your posts. You have reinforced my belief that knights, while they may sometime make mistakes, have the courage and integrity to correct them.

M'lord Maeryk, (sorry, I'm not aware of what other title to use)

I also want to thank you for moderating your posts. You speak passionately, (again, I can relate) but maybe attacking the position/idea, rather than the person would be more appropriate. In your first few posts I was very tempted to ignore your words, but as tempers cooled you began to argue your points less angrily. I didn't agree with everything you wrote, but I at least was not offended to read it.

[Wyrm]

When I first came to the archive with great thoughts of making a menacing barbute with horns on it that was exactly what I wanted to do, I knew no thought of making armour as they used to be and had an tempermental attitude against anyone who would challenge the creative cesspit of my imagination.

However, since simply associating myself, on here in messages, with other you guys, I've seen the great stuff that has been done and it inspired me to do similar. Now I'm still going to add my own small creative bits to make my armour my own but its 90% closer to authentic gear than not.

I think as long as there exists a desire to make people conform to certain standards in the SCA there will exist opposition to these conformities.

This whole topic reminds me of the 'cleaning up the world to make it a better place' ideal - which is if you want to make the world a better place start with your own backyard. So if you want the SCA to look a certain way then make the best damn example you can for those people like me who come along and they, like me, just might want to aspire to such an ideal also, then these people in turn may just have the same effect on someone else.

Does that make sense?

Wyrm.

[Ron Broberg]

while i applaud his efforts and all i dont think that he should be on the field as is. of course i am only judging this by the head shot provided. i would ask him what he is portraying with that helm. i dont think i would bounce him from the field but i would strongly suggest he try to focus on something more appropriate. again, this is only going by the head shot.

I shall quickly note that I'm not SCA, but interested. From this thread I think that I agree with much of what DukeLogan is saying, and this really struck me.

I observed the recent Estrella War, and am toying with the idea of attending Pennsic. But at Estrella one fighter that caught my eye was a gentleman who appeared to be a Lakota Warrior from the 1850's. (see photo at http://www.tomeistudios.com/pictures/open0057.html ) Would this fit the above mentioned rule?

That would be Sir Otakte of the Outlands. I believe his persona is a warrior of one of the Confederated Tribes of Eastern US (Iroquois / Five Nations), post European contact. The rest of his armour protrays the same character as his helm. A man of vitality who provides good service to our Kingdom, he was knighted with great acclaim at Estrella XX.

[Chris Gilman]

WOW
Aleric, Logan,
I'm the one that normally gets this kind of fire going!
Although that EK guys has a rivet loose or something cause there is a lot of annoying squeaking coming from him. He has some points though. Many of them belong with the points on a horned Viking helmet, but he has some points.
Plastic armour you can see hmmm? A full suit of plastic armour in the style of a period suit, Hmmm? I would say that would be a….NO!
Unless you allow them to wear a bald cap with fire orange hair and a rubber nose to go with the plastic plate.
Now plastic that has been covered and looks period, give em a laurel! (Unless they have an Academy Award)
Hey Alaric, I thought you traded some sets of Vampire fangs you made at the shop for those crown wins? You mean you actually trained, practiced and whupped all them guys for real? Logan did you do the same? Wow!
Hey Maeryk, you ever trained for crown and wupped ass? Or do you have a spray can of it in your knapsack? I have and I got a life’s supply given to me. Mainly because I got tired of punks with no way to show off or sporting a twig for wood, wearing Gargoyle sunglasses and camo pants fighting in SCA events and no one enforcing the period attempt rule as we would like it to be.
As for where to draw the line. Good question!
How about we start with some of the people pointed out here!
Bright green armour
Fluorescent helmets
Full suits of plastic plate made to look like European plate armour. (Some of the Japanese stuff looks ok)
19th century Native Americans (let this guy try his can of “Whup assâ€Â

[dukelogan]

while i am glad to hear that he is a man of good character and virtue i feel that he should consider following the rules of the game he has chosen to play and pick a persona that falls within those rules. i would not knight someone in that case. should he decide to portray that persona off the field i would applaud his efforts but not on the field. of course i also dont think samurai or the resemblance of them have a place on the field in the sca. i do, however, like the look of a well put together eastern set of armor if done well. that being the case i dont mind the good looking ones running around too much. but none of them really has a place on the field at an sca event. that is according to the charter that governs the sca. should that charter be changed to include such characters i would embrace the change wholeheartedly.

regards
logan

while i applaud his efforts and all i dont think that he should be on the field as is. of course i am only judging this by the head shot provided. i would ask him what he is portraying with that helm. i dont think i would bounce him from the field but i would strongly suggest he try to focus on something more appropriate. again, this is only going by the head shot.

I shall quickly note that I'm not SCA, but interested. From this thread I think that I agree with much of what DukeLogan is saying, and this really struck me.

I observed the recent Estrella War, and am toying with the idea of attending Pennsic. But at Estrella one fighter that caught my eye was a gentleman who appeared to be a Lakota Warrior from the 1850's. (see photo at http://www.tomeistudios.com/pictures/open0057.html ) Would this fit the above mentioned rule?

That would be Sir Otakte of the Outlands. I believe his persona is a warrior of one of the Confederated Tribes of Eastern US (Iroquois / Five Nations), post European contact. The rest of his armour protrays the same character as his helm. A man of vitality who provides good service to our Kingdom, he was knighted with great acclaim at Estrella XX.

[Gabriel Morgan]

while i am glad to hear that he is a man of good character and virtue i feel that he should consider following the rules of the game he has chosen to play and pick a persona that falls within those rules.

The rules state 'West and any civilization that had contact within period". There was definately contact between Europe. The practice of bringing Amerinds to Spain was so disruptive that an ordinance was passed in 1550 outlawing the practice. The French were soon to pick up the practice.

A group of Mexican Indian musicians, singers, dancers eight
jugglers, and twelve ball players, accompanied by two princes, arrived in
the entourage of Cortes in 1528 for presentation to the Court of Charles
V. They were very popular.

In 1498, three natives were taken from Newfoundland to England. They were reported to were the skins of animals, eat flesh raw, and not speak 'any gentle language'. In two years, two of the three wore 'common clothes and could not be discerned from Englishmen.'

"Sir Martin Frobisher (1535?-94) brought Inuit along with a kayak
to England in 1577, Queen Elizabeth allowed them to hunt on the Thames
and did not exempt swans from their attentions, to the amazement of the
English public."

By the mid-16th century, it was all the rage for royalty and wealthy nobles to have Amerinds in their entourages.

It was common to present Amerinds at Renn. festivals, 'displaying their culture'.

Most of the above and much, much more can be found in the book 'The Myth of the Savage' by Olive Patricia Dickason. It is simply fascinating. Not only can the argument be made that they are appropriate personae for the SCA, they clearly have MORE documentation that Japanese personae, whose inclusion basically rests on a few tonsured monks.

[dukelogan]

sorry, i thought i was clear when i stated:

"should he decide to portray that persona off the field i would applaud his efforts but not on the field."

i think a case could be made for several cultures that were paraded around as oddities in europe during the time constraints of the sca. but that doesnt make it the norm and it also doesnt provide any evidence that these people would be found on the field. i have nothing against personas from the fringe per se. only on the field as it simply makes little sense.

again i applaud his efforts and hope that he brings even more knowledge about things medieval to those around him through his research into these cultures.

regards
logan

while i am glad to hear that he is a man of good character and virtue i feel that he should consider following the rules of the game he has chosen to play and pick a persona that falls within those rules.

The rules state 'West and any civilization that had contact within period". There was definately contact between Europe. The practice of bringing Amerinds to Spain was so disruptive that an ordinance was passed in 1550 outlawing the practice. The French were soon to pick up the practice.

A group of Mexican Indian musicians, singers, dancers eight
jugglers, and twelve ball players, accompanied by two princes, arrived in
the entourage of Cortes in 1528 for presentation to the Court of Charles
V. They were very popular.

In 1498, three natives were taken from Newfoundland to England. They were reported to were the skins of animals, eat flesh raw, and not speak 'any gentle language'. In two years, two of the three wore 'common clothes and could not be discerned from Englishmen.'

"Sir Martin Frobisher (1535?-94) brought Inuit along with a kayak
to England in 1577, Queen Elizabeth allowed them to hunt on the Thames
and did not exempt swans from their attentions, to the amazement of the
English public."

By the mid-16th century, it was all the rage for royalty and wealthy nobles to have Amerinds in their entourages.

It was common to present Amerinds at Renn. festivals, 'displaying their culture'.

Most of the above and much, much more can be found in the book 'The Myth of the Savage' by Olive Patricia Dickason. It is simply fascinating. Not only can the argument be made that they are appropriate personae for the SCA, they clearly have MORE documentation that Japanese personae, whose inclusion basically rests on a few tonsured monks.

[Owen]

Vikings fighting Landsknect (and why is that always the example used?) doesn't make a great deal of sense either, but we cope.

[Maeryk]

i think a case could be made for several cultures that were paraded around as oddities in europe during the time constraints of the sca. but that doesnt make it the norm and it also doesnt provide any evidence that these people would be found on the field. i have nothing against personas from the fringe per se. only on the field as it simply makes little sense.

again i applaud his efforts and hope that he brings even more knowledge about things medieval to those around him through his research into these cultures.

regards
logan

Logan, Vikings, Saxons, Landsknechts, Japanese, Mongols, Scots, and a host of other period cultures did not fight in the tournaments you are attempting to recreate here either, does that mean they shouldnt be allowed? Nor did Romans, Greeks, Athenians, etc.

Just wondering.. how you decide that line? in tournament, or grand melee, what is "fringe"? Anything non-14th C? Seriously.

Maeryk