Petitioning the SCA EM re: Face Thrusts?

[dukelogan]

curious. can you name one kingdom and point out the specific rule to me so i can look it up? seems like another one of those situations that is impossible to gauge.

in other words fighter 1 says he was ducking to avoid the shot completely. the marshal says "you ducked so it would hit your helm". personally i think the marshal should shut up and do his job but lets say this is in some hypothetical kingdom where people can call other people liars and thats acceptable. so the marshal says "no, you meant to have the blow hit the top of your helm. i know because i am an all powerful marshal and my eyes were just calibrated last week". the fighter says, "no, i was trying to avoid the shot completely". after throwing up over the whole thing i would still wonder who gets the nod in this one. the fighter or the guy calling him a liar.

dont know about anyone else but any time something comes at my head and looks like it will strike me i duck. be it a spear thrust or a misplaced soccer ball at the park.

i really would love to know if there are kingdoms that actually try to enforce such a rule. a rule, by the way, that goes against the conventions of combat on a society level. oh, and a stupid rule at that.


regards
logan

Easy.

There is only one way to go (imho) face thrust = head thrust.

Let's not have people twisting their noggins so that they can ignore a beautfully controlled face thrust by catching it on the side of the helmet.

The total stupidity of this action should by-pass any rule.

Safety is basically the purpose of alll rules regarding heavy combat.

B

Actually if it is done on purpose, in many Kingdoms, it is considered target substitution, and the shot must be taken, just as if you pulled a calf up into a good leg shot.

Broinnfinn

[mrks]

an tir calls the whole head.

there is no face only and turning your head does no good except gets the side of your head blasted... which is well deserved.

the face touch rules have not changed our kingdom's wars one bit..

we have safe helms and if you dont have one... then you learn to get one darn quick.

while fighting single sword (this jan)I cut a guys nose open... accidently. never got to inspect the helm but then I wasnt blamed either. I did offer to fix/repad the helm but the was shooed away because I was making him talk while they had an ice pack on his nose. sadly he disapeared so I was never able to follow it up. if its not fixed it will most likely happen again.

[dukelogan]

an tir calls trusts to the entire head? not sure i would like the idea of a guy taking a spear, sight unseen, and clipping the side of my head. but i suppose i would get used to it if i lived out there with you guys.

regards
logan

an tir calls the whole head.

there is no face only and turning your head does no good except gets the side of your head blasted... which is well deserved.

the face touch rules have not changed our kingdom's wars one bit..

we have safe helms and if you dont have one... then you learn to get one darn quick.

while fighting single sword (this jan)I cut a guys nose open... accidently. never got to inspect the helm but then I wasnt blamed either. I did offer to fix/repad the helm but the was shooed away because I was making him talk while they had an ice pack on his nose. sadly he disapeared so I was never able to follow it up. if its not fixed it will most likely happen again.

[broinnfinn]

curious. can you name one kingdom and point out the specific rule to me so i can look it up? seems like another one of those situations that is impossible to gauge.

Meridies Marshal's Handbook, VI.A.11:

11. If a fighter deliberately causes an opponent to strike an illegal target area (wrist, knee, hand, etc.) that fighter should suffer the loss of the limb in question.

As to Hjamlr's assertion - I have seen Marshals interpret it both ways, but remember, in Meridies, while BLOWS to the side of the helm are not forbidden, THRUSTS are.

Incidentally, Hjalmr, you are also not supposed to be deliberately targeting the neck, elbow or groin here, however the blow must be taken if struck (VI.A.10).

Broinnfinn

[dukelogan]

the rule seems very clear to me. in the first sentence it states "to strike an illegal target area". the head is not an illegal target area when defined as it is further in that same sentence "wrist, knee, hand, etc". "etc" would be shin, calf, finger, toe, ankle, whatever.

if you have seen marshals interpret a rule in two very different ways it seems clear to me that you have a very severe marshal problem. but then again i have been to gulf wars so im not too surprised.

regards
logan

curious. can you name one kingdom and point out the specific rule to me so i can look it up? seems like another one of those situations that is impossible to gauge.

Meridies Marshal's Handbook, VI.A.11:

11. If a fighter deliberately causes an opponent to strike an illegal target area (wrist, knee, hand, etc.) that fighter should suffer the loss of the limb in question.

As to Hjamlr's assertion - I have seen Marshals interpret it both ways, but remember, in Meridies, while BLOWS to the side of the helm are not forbidden, THRUSTS are.

Incidentally, Hjalmr, you are also not supposed to be deliberately targeting the neck, elbow or groin here, however the blow must be taken if struck (VI.A.10).

Broinnfinn

[hjalmr]

Meridies Marshal's Handbook, VI.A.11:

As to Hjamlr's assertion - I have seen Marshals interpret it both ways, but remember, in Meridies, while BLOWS to the side of the helm are not forbidden, THRUSTS are.

Incidentally, Hjalmr, you are also not supposed to be deliberately targeting the neck, elbow or groin here, however the blow must be taken if struck (VI.A.10).

Broinnfinn

The Marshals Handbook uses the word "discourages" in regards to targeting the sides/top of the head with a thrust. This is of course a rule lawyering tactic that allows a fighter to turn his head, get struck in the legal (but not encouraged) side/top of the head and then decide not to call the blow. This is a tactic that I have seen taught to new fighters in several kingdoms most recently here in Meridies for Gulf Wars. Although this is annoying, it is better then the fighters who teach others to drop thier polearm when it is grasps and thier opponant is swinging at them -a tactic that is illegal by society rules.

On another note: Section VI, Number 1 of the Conventions of Combat for Meridies states "each combatant fighting in a crown list must comply with the requirements of kingdom law." By this wording it would not be unreasonable for someone to say that they don't have to comply with the rest of Section VI if they are not fighting in crown. Yes, thats absurd but it goes to show you how messed up SCA rules can be interpreted due to the way they are written.

[Dmitriy]

Logan --
It's not just An Tir, it's the whole West Coast.

An Tir, West, Caid, Atenveldt, Artemesia, possibly others.

We all take thrusts to the whole head, and have yet to experience the horrific consequences predicted so vehemently by folks who are not used to the concept.

[dukelogan]

thanks for the info. i doubt someone could drive a spear through a helm in reality (so little of sca fighting is) but if thats the way you guys do it thats cool by me. the key to why you havent had the dire consequences are your people. control is the hidden magic that some people seem to forget. its like the rule that states no swings past a certain arc. absurd. i had a "discuss" with a marshal about that rule once. wasnt until i explained that i could run up and kick a baby and not hurt it that he finally understood the concept of control.

regards
logan

Logan --
It's not just An Tir, it's the whole West Coast.

An Tir, West, Caid, Atenveldt, Artemesia, possibly others.

We all take thrusts to the whole head, and have yet to experience the horrific consequences predicted so vehemently by folks who are not used to the concept.