Company of Death!

[Caesar_Salad]

I am looking for information on the Company of Death!

- I know they were Italian (same as me!)
- I know they helped defeat Emperor Frederick in 1176
- I know they were ready to die in battle

Now some questions:

1. Is a visorless bascinet an appropriate helmet?
2. If a bascinet is appropriate, should it have an aventaile?
3. If a bascinet is not appropriate, what kind of helmet should I use?
4. Should the armour only be maille?
5. Which pieces of armour should be present?
6. Should the Hauberk (I need a hauberk don't I) be knee length?
7. Should it be thigh length?
8. Long sleeves? Short sleeves?
9. Maille leggings? Maille gloves?
10. Should I have any "accessories"?

If you have some info on topic please post!
Thanks,
Giulio

[Egfroth]

1176 Italy, eh?

For 1176, you need to look at places like here (English) and here (Italian).

1. Is a visorless bascinet an appropriate helmet?

No. Hadn't been invented yet. In general, conical or hemispherical or "pot" (like an upended saucepan) helmets, wih or without nasals.


2. If a bascinet is appropriate, should it have an aventaile?

See above. Aventails weren't used - coifs integral with the hauberk were.

3. If a bascinet is not appropriate, what kind of helmet should I use?

See above.

4. Should the armour only be maille?

Yes.

5. Which pieces of armour should be present?

Um - I think the answer - hauberk with integral coif, and chausses (mail hose) is the right one for this question.

6. Should the Hauberk (I need a hauberk don't I) be knee length?

See the linked pics

7. Should it be thigh length?

as above

8. Long sleeves? Short sleeves?

Long - short sleeves seem to have been very rare by thi time.

9. Maille leggings?

yes.

Maille gloves?

No - integral mail mufflers (ie mittens built into the sleeves)

10. Should I have any "accessories"?

Round topped or flat topped kite shield - or a little later, triangular shield. Geometric patterns or a big cross, or occasionally an animal on the shield.

[Mikael]

For an Italian it may not be news that they were led by "captain of fortune"
named Alberto di Giussano, at the said battle of Legnano.
Googling with Albertos name produced results mainly in Italian which may or may not contain relevant information on the Company.
Light cruiser bearing his name was apparently lost in action 1941?

Mikael

[Wil]

You need to get ahold of a copy of 'Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era'. It's full of line drawing of primary sources such as illuminations and sculptures, and has entire chapters dedicated to the Byzantines, Italo-Normans and Italians (which are the three influences on armour in that region at that time).

I would add a Phyrigian-style helmet to the choices Egfroth outlined, and layered lamellar and maille or scale-and-maille as well as just a hauberk as armour choices.

In the 12th century, attaching maille directly to a helm seems to have been practiced by Byzantines and Muslims, but not by Europeans.

If you can find a copy of the book, it'll answer all your questions

~Wil

[Caesar_Salad]

Thanks all,

I now have more question!

1. Obviously I need a skull on the shield...anything else?
2. How about Spangenhelms?

thanks,

Giulio

[Egfroth]

Thanks all,

I now have more question!

1. Obviously I need a skull on the shield

Er - why? As far as I'm aware, there's no evidence whatever for skulls on shields - or in any other kind of decoration - this early. If you go onto the 14th century, after the Black Plague, it's a whole different story. Though I still doubt you'd see many skulls on shields.

2. How about Spangenhelms?

The only evidence I know of for spangenhelms this late is a single manuscript illustration of about 1200, showing King Stephen at the Battle of Lincoln. It shows two hemispherical and one conical spangenhelm. But they seem to have been so unusual by this late date that I think you should leave them out of your calculations.

Are you doing this for the SCA, or other style of combat?

Are you in Italy?

What other information do you have about these guys? Can you quote a source I could look up?

Oh, and I'd agree with Wil about the Phrygian helmet. But I'd be a bit wary about the scale and lamellar. Though it was known, late 12th century portrayals aren't all that common.

[Caesar_Salad]

ok so no spangenhelm...

definitely not SCA

Not italy, CA, USA but I am italian

not much other info, but I found some sites (unfortunately most in Italian)

here they are:

http://www.geocities.com/vittopiro/alberto_da_giussano.htm

and

http://www.lapadania.it/pages/legnano.htm
(i'm not sure how old this is but, the guy in blue on the horse and also the guy in red in the foreground on the left with his sword raised)

By the way were skulls ever present on shield or in coat of arms?

thanks for all this info guys! keep it coming I still need more

[Egfroth]

The picture is a modern one, done in an attempt to duplicate the gear of the 1170's - but I have to say it's very romanticised and not terribly accurate. The surcoat really hadn't come in to any great degree by this time - and why is nobody wearing a helmet? You'd be better off relying on the contemporary illustrations if you want a good idea of what was actually worn.

As well as the references I've noted above, you could also look at http://www.clues.abdn.ac.uk:8080/bestia ... lio8r.html and http://www.clues.abdn.ac.uk:8080/bestia ... nacon.html

These are very much contemporary with the battle of Legnano.

Regarding skulls, I know of nothing before the 14th century. There was a sudden emphasis on images of death, particularly skeletons, skulls etc, which seems to be co-incident in time with the horrors of the Black Death and the Hundred Years War - understandably, people became very pessimistic and fixated on the idea that God was punishing Christendom for its sins.

I would say that there may have been skulls occasionally on coats of arms, but I've never come across one. In the 18th century, there began to appear regiments in Germany which used the skull as a symbol of their ferocity - these survived till the Totenkopf (death's head) regiments of the Nazi army in the second world war. Not sure if the skull is a symbol in very good taste. If it was used on shields in the time you're wanting to re-create, you'd have an argument in its favour, but as it doesn't seem to be, I'd say steer clear of it, romantic though it may seem.

There is an account of the battle in (sort-of) English at http://www.nemo.it/giovani/carroccio/In ... taglia.htm

For some of the political background of the battle, see http://www.fact-index.com/g/gu/guelphs_ ... lines.html

Hope this helps.

PS: If you're not in the SCA, what type of stuff do you do? Are you using rebated steel? Horses? From the description of the battle, I'd assume the Company of Death were cavalry.

You might try using a translation engine on the Italian articles (you won't get a perfect translation, but it should be enough for your needs), but a quick browse suggests the company aren't mentioned anyway.

[Caesar_Salad]

Egfroth, thanks for the very useful info!

So surcoats are out too? dang

so what's in?

-conical, round or "pot" helm for head
-knee length hauberk with integral hood and mittens
-mail chausses
-kite shield with geometric designs, cross or animal (kite can also be plain with boss right?)
-plain "norman like" sword (dagger?)
-lance with large "spear like" head and plain straight pole

list is a little skimpy, did i forget anything?

thanks guys,

Giulio

[Abaddon]

The Company of Death?
Whose death?
Sounds like the Judean People's Front.
Or is it the People's Front of Judea?

[Michael B]

Skulls are kool.

[Egfroth]

The Company of Death?
Whose death?
Sounds like the Judean People's Front.
Or is it the People's Front of Judea?

Splitter!

[Egfroth]

Egfroth, thanks for the very useful info!

So surcoats are out too? dang

Yep. Looks a lot like it. They had started coming in about this time, so with a bit of a push you might be able to justify them. But to be honest, I'd be pretty cautious about it. Here's another pic, this time from the Winchester Bible, dated somewhere between 1160-1180. Again, no surcoats. But if I recall, some other pics from the same Bible do show them. So, just on the cusp of them coming in. However, if you look at the other contemporary pics previously mentioned, no surcoats.

Oh, and another one I'd forgotten, here is an early nineteenth century copy of the The Hortus Deliciarum "a large compilation of texts from Biblical, traditional and theological sources to treat the history of the world from creation to its final consummation at the end of time. This compilation made by Herrad, abbess of Hohenbourg in Alsace between 1176-1196" (the original, sadly, was destroyed by fire in 1870) .


And you could look at http://www.geocities.com/egfrothos/FourthCrusade.html - though from a Byzantine perspective, and a little primitive, the fourth picture shows three soldiers of the Fourth Crusade of 1204, also with no surcoats (though their hauberks appear to reach their ankles, something mentioned in other sources).

so what's in?

-conical, round or "pot" helm for head

Or Phrygian

-knee length hauberk with integral hood and mittens
-mail chausses
-kite shield with geometric designs, cross or animal (kite can also be plain with boss right?)

Yep, and round or flat-topped.

-plain "norman like" sword (dagger?)

I'd say yes to both, though I don't really have much evidence regarding the dagger - they seem to have been left out of a lot of pictures - does that mean they weren't used, or just not shown?.

-lance with large "spear like" head and plain straight pole

list is a little skimpy, did i forget anything?

thanks guys,

Giulio

Yep, that seems about right.

[jester]

Fascinating. I knew of the later Company of Death (~1570) but not the earlier. From the accounts it is unclear if the earlier Company was a standing formation. I get the impression that it was a volunteer group of citizens from Legnano who had sworn to defend the carroccio to the death. This was fairly typical of warfare between the Italian city states. When the citizens went to war (as opposed to when they sent mercenaries out to do the fighting) they were accompanied by the carroccio (a four-wheeled cart bearing the banner of the city state;). In theory all citizens were obliged to defend the carroccio to the death, but it's hard to build a living tradition on the bodies of dead men.

This battle is still celebrated in Legnano. They have a yearly palio (horse race) and carroccio festival that will take place in.... April. The website is less than impressive but does have some interesting pictures of the carroccio (which was apparently featured in the 2002 New York Columbus Day parade) and a brief summary of the battle that doesn't mention la Compagnia della Morte at all (even though they are apparently an integral part of the carroccio festival).

[Caesar_Salad]

Ah ha! I found a very interesting site! (thanks to an archive member... )

check it out:

http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/page13b.html

the most interesting part is the conical helm... would any of you medieval armour encyclopedias help me? If the helmet existed around the 8th century, would it work for 1176?

By the way, Jester, what's the later company of death? any web sites? where are they from?

thanks,

Giulio

[Tom Knighton]

While I am not an expert, my gut says no. You are looking at 3 3/4 centuries of difference there. Rarely did a helm style last that long. Even good old spangenhelm went through different styles of spangenhelm over its long career.

IIRC, the conical helms from this period DO seem to be one piece construction, much like the helm shown on that website seems to be. However, I've never seen the sides and back on another helm from that time period.

Bran

[Dmitriy]

There's an Osprey book that has a member of the Company in one of the full-color illustrations, and it shows him with a skull on his surcoat. I am not sure what the artist's sources were, but usually they are listed in the back of the book. It was either one of the Crusades Ospreys, or an Italian Armies one.

-Dmitriy

[Caesar_Salad]

Anyone have one of those books and can shed light? I unfortunately do not... Thanks all, keep the info coming!

Giulio