Surcote construction

Madyn · Post by **Madyn** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:26 am

A lot of SCA folks seem to make surcotes out of duck canvas or trigger for durability and longevity's sake--less chance of the fabric snagging, ripping, etc. What were real surcotes made out of in the early 14th century (say England or France)? Wool? A sturdy linen? Something else?Are there any extant examples out there?

Can someone suggest ideas/patterns/construction tips for making a surcote as authentic as possible but still durable for SCA use?

Thanks!

JPT · Post by **JPT** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:32 am

Most of the documentation makes reference to linen.

Most SCA surcotes and tabards are made out of trigger because as a rule they get thrown into armour bags after practice or war or tourney and are forgotten until the next time they are needed.

JPT · Post by **JPT** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:33 am

silk is also mentioned in the documentation that I've seen, but I don't think I'd recommend that for SCA use.

Madyn · Post by **Madyn** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:54 am

Thanks Cailean.

I seem to remember seeing a photo of a surcote from Denmark (or Norway? Sweeden?) that was made of wool, but I could be very wrong about that.

So if linen was commonly used, what would be a good modern weight? 7 oz.? Heavier? Lighter?

Can anyone post photos of some well-made, authentic surcotes?

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:02 am

Silk is a far more durable material that even linen and linen kicks cottons butt. Silks only down fall is that sweat and sunlight will eventually destroy it.

For my livery, when I get to it, I am going to use 5 to 7 oz linen. Linen is nice and cool, flows better than cotton, and is easier to clean.

No history in my post just fabric facts.

JPT · Post by **JPT** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:32 am

What Jimmy B said, with sprinkles on it ...

Might want to use silk for something like a court tabbard or something that you were going to wear every once in a while.

My next one is going to be as James suggested 5-7 oz linen. Now I just need someone who would be willing to embroider my lions on it. I am without anything even resembling skill when it comes to sewing. I can ham finger a basic garment but nothing that's supposed to look other than a lopsided bag thrown over my head.

Madyn · Post by **Madyn** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:48 am

Cailean wrote:What Jimmy B said, with sprinkles on it ...

Now I just need someone who would be willing to embroider my lions on it. I am without anything even resembling skill when it comes to sewing. I can ham finger a basic garment but nothing that's supposed to look other than a lopsided bag thrown over my head.

What about painting the lions or device on the linen? I've heard people suggest this might have been done (especially if the wearer wasn't rich). Just a thought.

DeCalmont · Post by **DeCalmont** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:04 pm

Although both are excellent choices I would lean towards the linen. If this is for a fighting surcote the Linen tends to be more resistant to abrasion than Silk IMHO.

JP

JPT · Post by **JPT** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:10 pm

Madyn,

Could do it that way, and I will most likely do it that way in the end, and yes to the best of my ability to document painting on cloth is an authentic period practice. It's just that embroidery looks so good.

Madyn · Post by **Madyn** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:30 pm

Cailean,

I agree--embroidery rocks. However, if someone put a gun to my head and said "embroider or die," well, it would be messy. The emboridery of the death. Most likely the death. So once I get to that stage, it will be paint (which I can manage) or finding an embroidery guru.

What about cutting your lion's out of another piece of fabric, hemming the edges, sewing it down, and just painting the details/lines? Doesn't appliquing include some kind of technique like this? Not sure, and it might just be an ugly hybrid, but just brainstorming.

Oh, and thanks DeCalmont and James B for the input.

JPT · Post by **JPT** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:46 pm

Madyn,

I did that on my last one and wasn't really happy with the results. Lions rampant (14th century style) are kind of a complicated shape and apliqe (sp?) is kind of tricky with complicated shapes. I think this time it will end up being paint, but if I'm going to the trouble and expense of linen I really really want it to look good.

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 2:00 pm

Sometimes it helps to embroider the detailed or fussy bits -- I prefer to do couching for the stronger outlines, and stemstitch for the other sorts of details.

The outline couching not only helps to define the outline of the figure, but also conceals the fiddly bits where the fabric doesn't quite turn under the way you wanted it to.

In period, the couching outlines on appliquÃƒÂ© seems to have been done primarily in some sort of gold thread -- real gold metal-thread in some examples, but IIRC some of the 14th/15th century examples use gilded strips of leather. (I personally prefer to couch a black thread, a bit thicker than the thread used for the detailwork inside the figures.)

I also recommend adding a layer (or layers) of padding between the embroidered appliquÃƒÂ© and the base fabric -- I've used felt for this. The padding also helps to add definition to the figure, helps protect the threads on the back of the embroidery, and helps you avoid having the background color affect the color of the appliquÃƒÂ©. (This is especially useful if your figure is a lighter color than the background; use a piece of felt that's about the same color as the figure. Wool felt is available at the larger fabric chain stores in this area.)

If you're interested in this general subject matter, it's worth finding a copy of Janet Arnold's article, "The Jupon or Coat-Armour of the Black Prince in Canterbury Cathedral," in a 1993 issue of the Journal of the Church Monument Society. (A replica of the jupon is on display at Canterbury Cathedral; the article discusses the real thing.) I realize it's not the same thing as the surcoats you're interestd in doing, but Arnold's discussion of the ornamentation & construction would be useful for learning about the details of how a surcoat would have been done up.

JPT · Post by **JPT** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 2:05 pm

Karen,

Thank you kindly for the information. I have to admit that that part of the project is more than a little daunting for a ham fingered sword swinger like me, but I've always thought the Black Prince's jupon was very nice ...

I do have a few concerns over how well the whole thing will hold up when worn over maille, because maille is notorious for devouring cloth around it, but we'll see what happens.

Cailean

Madyn · Post by **Madyn** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:40 pm

Thanks for the suggestions Karen.

Anybody else out there have tips or photos? Keep em coming.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:52 pm

Here is a sweet artical about livery badges I found a few months ago, I really want to do this one day.

http://www.vam.ac.uk/vastatic/microsite ... person.php

Madyn · Post by **Madyn** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:10 pm

Awesome article. Beyond me right now, but maybe a goal to shoot for.

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 7:28 pm

15th century instructions (mid-15th??) written by Cennino d'Andrea Cennini in his Il Libro dell'Arte (The Craftsman's Handbook) can be had cheaply in a Dover reprint, readily available. He discusses a number of ways to paint, block print, and dye linen, even discussing the dyes used for the pigments.

A quick way to find his entries on these subjects is to look in the index under "linen" and "cloth". A myriad of information, though it's technically dated to the 15thc, not the 14th.

-Tasha

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:03 pm

Marcele wrote:15th century instructions (mid-15th??) written by Cennino d'Andrea Cennini in his Il Libro dell'Arte (The Craftsman's Handbook) can be had cheaply in a Dover reprint, readily available.

Even more cheaply, it's available online.

Marcele wrote:A myriad of information, though it's technically dated to the 15thc, not the 14th.

Well, the really early 15th century. Like, around 1390.

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:45 am

That would actually be good news to me, so please let me know the details of this dating to 1390. The Dover preface isn't terribly clear on the subject, from what I can tell.

-Tasha

Bartok · Post by **Bartok** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:39 am

I would have thought silk and wool would have been the materials used since they dye well. I was under the impression period dyes didn't stay well in linen.

Bartok

JPT · Post by **JPT** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:59 am

Bartok,

I haven't been able to find a single reference to a woolen surcote. Not saying they didn't make them, just that nobody wrote it down if they did. Mind you we're relying on somewhat romanticized accounts written by chronicallers who may have had any number of reasons for embellishing what they saw so with all things, take with a grain of salt.

As a loose rule, silk was much favored by royalty and high nobility, moreso on the continent than in the British Isles. Linen was the material of choice for middle and lower nobility and the common soldiery wore what they were issued by their masters. We don't hear much about them in the chronicals.

My search was not exhaustive, and others will likely have more information than I.

Madyn · Post by **Madyn** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:32 am

Cailean,

Here's a reference to a wool surcoatish kind of garment, found in Denmark, 14th century.

http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/artic ... 7/H37.html

Gets kind of chilly in them parts, so wool wouldn't have been a bad choice.

JPT · Post by **JPT** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:34 am

Madyn,

Spiffers. Thank you for the link.

Madyn · Post by **Madyn** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:41 am

Cailean,

Pleasure.

Karen and Marcel,

Thanks kindly for the link. Great stuff.

Surcote construction

Surcote construction

Linen vs. Silk