I'm Really stuck now...

[Sgt. Heinrich]

Well. I want to get into SCA combat, but I do NOT have a ton of money. I wanted to portray a german crusader from the Third Crusade, but the maille alone would be beyond my means. I mean, i could make butted 14ga maille, but it would weigh me down so much. The other persona I had thought about was a Varangian Guard. If I made lamellar would that be a better cost-effective move?

Anyone have any other ideas for portrayals? I tend to like stuff before and maybe just up to transitional, german preferably. I guess I'm pretty open as I haven't really assembled any kit yet. If anyone has any pictures of workable kits, that would be cool as well.

[Fulk]

When I started SCA fighting I was able to buy a bunch of used stuff cheap (14th C). Now that I've been fighting a few years I've been upgrading my armour to make an early period kit.

If you want to do SCA get into some armour now, then work to your
dream kit.

Hardened leather lamellar is pretty cheap and easy to make yourself.

mike

[Tom Knighton]

Sorry Mike, I don't know where you live, but in many places leather is more expensive that steel. It's easy to work, but the cost of the leather makes it prohibitive for many newcomers in this area.

Polarus,

If you want to do a crusader persona, find out about the various types of armour possibly available during that time to your persona. If maille is all there is, and you can't afford to do that, then look at other options. A gambeson is fairly inexpensive, can be held on to after you CAN afford maille, and won't really detract from the look you are going for. Lamellar may or may not be an option for you. I know at one point you were looking at a Teutonic Knight idea. Look at options that were available to the Teutonic Knights for other possibilities. Research is your best friend now, but instead of looking at the knightly class, look at the sergeantry. They may have worn something else that you can replicate for less expense.

Good luck!

Bran

[InsaneIrish]

You can do a nice Crusader rig for fairly cheap. Maille was not ALL they wore, many wore COPs or Gambesons. Hidden armour is another option. Just make sure it IS hidden well so it won't detract from your rig.

Also, if you want to do Lammallar on the cheap look here:
http://www.brettunsvillage.com/leather/scrap/scraps.htm

About 1/2 way down the page they sell boot heel leather for $25 per 80 heels. The average (I don't know how big you are) to make a vest is about 150-200. So, $50 and you get your leather pre cut. Just drill holes and lace, OR cuire boille it first and then lace. this to can be hidden and works well for SCA combat.

[Tarquin Bjornsson]

if you make hardended leather lamellar, trust me get a belt end punch (half round), it will make life a lot easier for you.

[Sgt. Heinrich]

Yah, coat of plates may be the way to go, over a gambeson. That is actually close to period. and then leather vambraces, gorget, spaulders (maybe), steel elbow and knee cops, wear a surcoat, and some cuisses for the upper thighs, maybe some leather gauntlets. That and a helmet and I should be good, I guess.

Still soliciting even more ideas....

(Can never have too many ideas)

[Lachlann]

If you do hardened leather either use a GOOD punch or a drill to make all the lacing holes.

Lachlann

[Ernst]

Does this mean I don't need to waste my time looking up specific folio numbers for 12th century kit which I promised in your 3rd Crusade thread?

Really, I've seen this from several posters (Wyrmspleen was just ahead of you). People come asking for info for earlier kits, only to be told that nothing before the mid-14th century will work in an SCA context. It's not surprising that 16th century plate armor affords better protection than 12th century mail. In the SCA, you will have to make some adustments if your armor dates from before 1340 or so, but this hardly means 12th century isn't able to be done. If you want an idea or suggestion, try this one: Pick a time frame from which you really like the look or like the history, then research that and try to get it right.

Far too many people in the SCA have great pieces of armor, e.g. a 1360's Wisby CoP, a 9th century spangenhelm, a 15th century set of leg armor, a 16th cntury gauntlet, but look like SCA fighters instead of like 14th century town militia, or 9th century viking raiders, etc. This is because the look of the kit is not approached as a whole. Each piece is chosen for the protection it offers, or the advantage it imparts, or because it looked really good at the time it was bought. You will find that you achieve more notice (glory) and honor by having a unified appearance in temporal terms.

Mail can be very cheap in materials, if you don't mind making it yourself. I personally don't think that 14g 7/16" i.d. butted mail is too heavy for SCA use, or is inappropriate in appearance. It is very quick to assemble. Sure, historic weight riveted mail is better and more accurate if you have the skill, time, or money to obtain it. Butted mail is still more accurate than most SCA armor on the field (sadly). If you think 14g is too heavy, you coud use 16g 5/16" i.d. or 17g 1/4" i.d. instead. A half mile of 17g electric fence wire is less than $15. I've fought in mail in the SCA. It isn't useless or totally ineffective, neither is it as effective as 14th century CoP's or 15th century Gothic Plate.

If you decide on a time frame, there are plenty of people who are well researched in various specific areas -- Bob Reed for late 15th century, Erik Schmidt for late 14th, Russ Mitchell for Eastern Europe, Egfroth for Byzantine, Matt Amt for Roman, and the list can continue at some length for Vikings and Saxons, or Italians and French. You can get lots of help, but it's up to you to decide if you're going to be 12th century, 14th century, or Generi-SCA.

[Sgt. Heinrich]

I am interested in having a good kit. But that's why I am considering a CoP, becuase they were marginally in that time-frame. I would love to wear mail, but i will have to make it on the side, slowly. Also, I could get a GAA CoP set for like $75, and that is important to me to have something to start with. I have had medical issues come up that are really strapping me for money, as well as $20,000 in student loans hanging over my head. This means I have to start with what I can, make it the best I can, and then move forward from there.

I woul;d certainly be interested in any other non-expensive ways to play a 3rd crusade era soldier, even of the lower strata. The problem is that if they were not wearing maille, it was just a gambeson, which is NOT suitable as all the armor i would wear while being beaten with large sticks.

[Amalric Unomen]

The mail from this company is not very accurate, but it is both light and affordable http://www.azoncorporation.com/AZONx.htm

At best your kit will always be a work in progress, and a year from now you might fall in love with 16th century full plate. Do the best you can and improve it in small steps.

[Sgt. Heinrich]

I am committed to getting a 3rd crusade, or up to about 1230, kit together. It's just I need a lower place to start then full chain maille. Working by myself in my spare time, that would take me maybe 6 months just to get it halfway done. That's why i asked about lower end armor from the period. I'm not averse to playing a sergeantry type persona, with just a gambeson, if i can figure a way to make it safe enough.

[Stacy Elliott]

Have you read about the German contingent on the 3rd Crusade?

G

[Fearghus Macildubh]

If you are going to start lower than maille, go with a heavily padded gambeson, like the foot soldiers in the Macjowski Bible. Underneath you could wear a reinforced body bracelet and low profile limb armour. Then, build your maille coat as time allows and make it big enough to go over the gambeson.

[Tom Knighton]

Polarus,

GAA's CoP kit is based on one of the CoPs found from the Battle of Wisby, fought in 1361. That is really late, and while the Wisby plates are believed to have been out of style when the battle was fought I doubt they were a full century late.

The early CoP was really just a reenforced surcoat. Basically it was a surcoat with plates rivetted to the inside. There were gaps, but it can be made to work for SCA useage.

A gambeson, in conjunction with some form of rigid kidney protection, should be good to start with. It can be made fairly authentic and will serve until after you can complete/purchase maille should you still wish to go that route.

Don't stress on weight so much. Most SCA armour weighs more than it should, so you won't be alone. Also, butted maille will serve you just fine, with repairs, until you are either able to buy riveted or decide to do something else (both of which are possible).

Good luck.

Bran

[Maelgwyn]

I think you might find the table in this article useful as a planning aid.

[Templar Bob/De Tyre]

Polarus:

Another option to consider is to concentrate your money on purchase of a pot helm or round-top helm with a visor--maille can be added to the helm to simulate the "cap with a coif" effect. Much of the armour you wear from neck to knees can be hidden beneath a surcoat with elbow-length sleeves. It's how I did a Templar impression for many, many years.

You can certainly upgrade to a mailled hauberk at a later date, and can add other equipment appropriate to a 3rd Crusade German impression as you go along. What's equally important is acquiring the soft kit for when you're out of armour.

EDIT: I also owned an aketon that had pockets sewn on the inside (a lot of extra work for the seamstress), with each pocket accepting a Kydex/HDPE plate. The plates were structured to overlap, working similar to the way a Roman Lorica Segmentata would, to facilitate mobility. There were also pockets for pl*stic spaulders, and a larger plate for the upper back.

ADVANTAGES: A compromise for protection and mobility, which allowed me to wear a hauberk.

DISADVANTAGES: VERY hot, and didn't allow heat dissipation well.

If I ever did such an item in future, I would drill holes in the plates to assist with rapid cooling.

Hope this helps,

[Primvs Pavlvs]

How about taking Bobs suggestion and getting a nice period correct helm and then build a armoured surcoat. These can be made for very little investment and it would still put you into the era your wanting to represent. Padded gambeson with simple elbow cops and a rigid vambrace underneath maybe be another altenative. But anyway here is a link for a amoured surcoat. http://www.meridies.org/as/dmir/Arms&Armor/02/0222.html

[Templar Bob/De Tyre]

Polarus:

Should you opt for going with a later impression (as Muschijaeger suggests above), the kit would make you more in line for for a "Battle of Lake Peipus" type kit, suitable for the Crusades in eastern Europe and Russia against the Baltic pagans and Eastern Orthodox. This is in and of itself a nice look.

You can also do a circa 1180-1200 look by making a surcoat to hide your rigid protection on torso, upper arms and upper legs. You can make mailled chausses that can go to the knees, and ultimately build to a hauberk.

Of course, if you do both, you'll have modular armour....

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Great idea Bob 13th Cent MOLLE gear.

[JPT]

Well. I want to get into SCA combat, but I do NOT have a ton of money. I wanted to portray a german crusader from the Third Crusade, but the maille alone would be beyond my means. I mean, i could make butted 14ga maille, but it would weigh me down so much. The other persona I had thought about was a Varangian Guard. If I made lamellar would that be a better cost-effective move?

Anyone have any other ideas for portrayals? I tend to like stuff before and maybe just up to transitional, german preferably. I guess I'm pretty open as I haven't really assembled any kit yet. If anyone has any pictures of workable kits, that would be cool as well.

I'm of the opinion that any era can be kitted effectively for SCA combat, and most of them can be done relatively inexpensively.

The third crusade is the time of Barbosa and Richard the Lionheart so there's a wealth of material. The highest ranking crusaders would have worn full maille, but backing away from that actually makes it easier for you to do a kit inexpensively. To save money and make it easier to construct I'm going to recommend that you use (GASP) plastic. HDPE (High Density Polyethelyne) is relatively inexpensive, can be cut easily with a jig saw and shaped by heating with an inexpensive paint stripper available at your favorite hardware store.

Materials

1 sheet of 3/16" HDPE say 4X8 ft. You won't need it all.
1 jig saw with a very fine toothed blade
1 heat gun / paint stripping gun
1 drill with bit to put holes in the plates for rivets
some scrap leather for straps and such
buckles
rivets for attaching straps and such
3-4 yards of fairly heavy weight cloth (trigger works well but isn't period pick your favorite color)

Cut a number (exact number is a matter for experimentation) of 3" X 5" plates from the plastic, and finish the edges so they're smooth.

Take the cloth and make a knee (or slightly longer) length surcote with long WIDE sleeves. If you're not good at sewing someone in your local group can help you with this. I'd put a big bright colored cross on the front, but it doesn't have to be there.

Lay the plates out on the shoulders, chest, back and torso of the surcote to suit you. Rivet the plates to the inside of the surcote.

Roofing nails make a really good rivet for this purpose, if you use them you will also need a quantity of washer to form the backing for the rivets.

Make cuisses and knees out of plastic to suit yourself and meet the requirements of your kingdom. Any number of patterns will work for this so I really can't be more specific. These get hidden under leggings.

Using the bazuband pattern available here on the archive, make a pair of bazubands out of plastic. You'll have to fiddle with the seam at the elbow to get a closure that works. A strip of leather rivetted along the seam, or better would be a thin strip of metal. These go under the wide sleeves of the surcote.

You will also need a gorget and something to protect your hands. You should have plenty of plastic for that.

Certainly not a period harness, but you've covered the lion's share of the plastic, and you've certainly spent more effort to make it look pretty than a lot of people ever do.

Top it off with a pretty norman cap helm or a kettle hat, a kite or heater shield and you're set to go and people will oooh and ahhh over your kit.

That's how I'd do it anyway.

[Sgt. Heinrich]

Thanks to everybody for some excellent suggestions. I should eb able to coem up with something workable from this.

[Sgt. Heinrich]

Templar Bob, you got any links to those types of helmets you were talking about? Like pictures? It would eb greatly appreciated.

[Sgt. Heinrich]

Also, T-Bob, what would you suggest for rigid protection on the torso and upper arms? I suppose i can wear leather vambraces for my lower arms, or is that ootp too?

[Templar Bob/De Tyre]

Templar Bob, you got any links to those types of helmets you were talking about? Like pictures? It would eb greatly appreciated.

Polarus:

I would, but my home PC died--until I can either get a new one, or reformat the old one, I don't have access to that information at this time. Once it's up, I'll have them available.

Also, T-Bob, what would you suggest for rigid protection on the torso and upper arms? I suppose i can wear leather vambraces for my lower arms, or is that ootp too?

You have any number of people who will cheerfully sell you rigid or semi-rigid torso/upper arm protection (or even the components to make the same). Thorvaldr sells wax-hardened leather scales and lamellar which (while not common), would have been worn either by itself (by poorer members of the warrior class) or as a supplement to maille. GAA Armouries will sell 20-gauge stainless lamellar or plates to build an earlier style of coat-of-plates. The addition of a tunic with "Magyar" sleeves (tight at wrist, wide at the shoulder) can hide formed pl*stic armour on the forearms and elbows.

Some of these suggestions were made further up the thread, though...

[Karl Helweg]

Polarus - before these well meaning folks talk you into the dark lamellar pat, please jump on over to this little site and see if we can help your resources stretch a little:

http://statuta.netfirms.com/cgi-bin/iko ... d67a12584f

Ernst - You wouldn't happen to be the same Ernst that I bought a mail hauberk from back in the 80's would you?

[Templar Bob/De Tyre]

Karl:

Dark lamellar pat???

I believe I've given Polarus information that was varied, and appropriate for what a Third Crusade soldier would have worn (which is specifically what he asked for). Further, I've done my level best to assist him with ideas on no less than three different styles of semi-rigid armour that he could wear (hidden beneath a surcoat or worked into his aketon), specifically; scale armour or the earlier versions of coats-of-plates (with the small plates riveted inside a backing).

Where precisely do you see that I've primarily steered Polarus towards lamellar?

[Ernst]

Karl,

It could well be so. I churned out quite a bit of butted mail back then, sometimes making a larger ring hauberk over a weekend travelling to an event, and finishing the thing Friday night doing an all-nighter. I stopped counting how many I had made or sold after #20. I had been in Alabama before moving to Mississippi, but could be found throughout Meridian events.

Polarus,

I hope I didn't come across too harshly in my previous posts. A number of individuals have given you armor options which are cheap and seem to meet your protection requirements; however, not many of them will be found in a late 12th century "German" context. Gambesons can be found, and mail can be found. Perhaps you can find an illustration of lamellar or scale armor from Bohemia in the appropriate time frame, else you will have to go with hidden armor IF you want to keep a Third Crusade appearance. The earliest reinforced surcoats and coats of plate don't show up until the mid-13th century.

[Templar Bob/De Tyre]

Ernst:

Precisely the point I'd made earlier.

If you want to do Third Crusade, hide the torso armour behind a surcoat.

Body armour that was visible for that period was primarily maille. References to other items (Even allowing for their mention in the time period) were exceptions rather than the rule. Within the context of the Third Crusade, those are his options.

[Sgt. Heinrich]

I think what I will end up doing is going with a padded gambeson that will work when I get my maille hauberk done. I will maybe get some cuisses, and use hidden plastic to reinforce the parts that are susceptible to injury. I don't think I'd go the route of lamellar or anything like that since it is a decent expense, and my whole point was I didn't have much money. I would like as much of my kit as possible to be transferrable when I do complete my maille. No sense wasting money profligately.

A few little questions though. In that time period were gambesons worn over a tunic or under. Also, were vambraces common then. What kind of surcoats were they wearing, and what level of heraldry were they at? And finally, should I just make my gambeson big enough to fit over some light plastic armor, so it is the only visible layer of armor?

Thanks to everyone for all their help. I know it's difficult to help someone come up with some cheap ways to get a kit, that are not abysmally out of period.

[St. George]

metal lamellar is more protective and MUCH cheaper than leather. Even scrap leather (but not free leather).

Alaric

[Ernst]

Ernst:

Precisely the point I'd made earlier.

If you want to do Third Crusade, hide the torso armour behind a surcoat.

Body armour that was visible for that period was primarily maille. References to other items (Even allowing for their mention in the time period) were exceptions rather than the rule. Within the context of the Third Crusade, those are his options.

T-Bob,

I believe that you have given Polarus much more useful information than I have. I also readily concede that you have done much more study for the 12th century than I, my interest falling more in the 13th and early 14th. My difficulty, I guess, derives from the surcoat itself. I've gathered a rather diverse set of illustrations from the 1170's which seem universal in the lack of surcoats. Pfaffen Conrad's 'Rolandslied' of 1170 being a precisely dated, but difficut to interpret example. (Trousered mail anyone?) http://www.reichert-verlag.de/3920153022c.jpg

The surcoat certainly conceals a variety of sins once it appears. I checked several of my books, and most seem to agree that the surcoat appears about 1170 in French literature, and that previous notions that it was adopted from the Saracens is in error. I am unsure as to when it became common. My problem seems to be in the dating of sources. Certainly the Eneid of Veldeke shows very long flowing surcoats in common use, but does it date from 1200-1210 (post 3rd Crusade -- 1189-92), or is it antebellum of c. 1180-90? This might seem like petty bickering, but as Bob Reed once pointed out to me, you're not going to document powered airplanes before 1903. Some things have a certain start date, and I'm not sure where that lies for the surcoat. Perhaps you'd be wiling to enlighten me with some of your research if you have hard copy available? Sorry to hear about the 'puter problems.

Mart

[Ernst]

Karl,

After looking at your profile on your linked site, it all came back to me. IIRC you were in Army at the time, and USPS ate the hauberk. I think I pulled two all-nighters (at a Magna Faire in Birmingham/ Iron Mountain?) to replace what the Postal Monster ate. Tracking never could find the 38#'s of steel hauberk!

[JJ Shred]

How much is too much to spend on mail? A butted 16 gauge halberk runs about $200.00, and a 14 gauge $300.00, and a coif $50.00 - 75.00. I've got a long sleeved 14 G. knee-length halberk, coif and pair of maille (SCA non-legal) gauntlets I'd sell for $325.00 for the set. A flat top barrel helm and you'd have the look.

[Sgt. Heinrich]

I thank you for your offer, but i'm not looking to do butted maille. It's a weight issue. I am capable of building it myself if I want butted, but I am going to save up and buy the materials to make a rivetted hauberk (or is it haubergeon since it's knee-length?).

Metal lamellar seems, Duke Alaric, like it would work very well. It just wouldn't suit my persona very well. I do not want to be one of those people who just buys bits and pieces for many different kits, just because they offer good overall protection or something. Since I feel committed to 3rd crusade, and I might even go earlier for LH, like the height of Outremer, I will just make a gambeson and wear low-profile armor.

I am not expecting to ever win anything anyway, so I might as well try to be as authentic as possible.

Everyone, please not my questions above, which remain unanswered. I would GREATLY appreciate any help that could be offered.

[Murdock]

Polarus email me.

I can help ya with your rig. No money involved.

As for helms look at Lewis Moore, he makes appropriate great helms at great prices.