Religion and the List Field

HugoFuchs · Post by **HugoFuchs** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 5:44 pm

Templar Bob/De Tyre wrote:I like it because I actually sneaked a Black Panther past the Society College of Heralds....

That's FUNNY! Of course I'm not suitably politically correct either. :wink:

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 6:36 pm

Deus Invicto it is.

Hubris. James Hubris. 007 at your service. :wink:

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 6:46 pm

Alcy -- never heard of tempting fate?

Effingham

brewer · Post by **brewer** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 7:30 pm

First Point: T-Bob, that conjunction of colours, while definitely unique, made my poor heraldic eyes bleed. I'll be wary of you in the future. Heartburn Kitty, indeed!

Point the Second: It has always infuriated me (

) that the SCA has such a authority problem that it reacts so negatively toward the Second Estate. I mean, honestly, it's like a bunch of grownups who just can't get over having been made to go to Sunday School as second-graders. I've enjoyed that part of history for years, and have portrayed priests/friars/Templars/preachers/etc. at times for all of that time. If I had a dollar for every time I've gotten the cold shoulder at events, or gotten into arguments with people who can't read (Corpora does not disallow religion; it disallows religious activities which are or might be perceived to be mandatory activities at an event), I'd have a new friggin' car. Once not terribly long ago, I had to be terse with a Duchess who claimed that religious personae weren't allowed; I would have been more polite, but how can someone who has ruled a kingdom be that unfamiliar with law and policy!?.

I'm normally very cool with the SCA. I like the SCA, I play in the SCA and have fun in the SCA. But this is one area where the SCA sucks shit through tubes. And it will never change, because of the cultural mentality of the organisation.

One of the things that is very cool about the SCA is that it is a subculture. All of its members and hangers-on have more than a little bit of the geek in their closet (even the butchest Dukes

). And one of the indicators of geekdom is attention-grabbing. Being so obvious about one's personal beliefs as to hold up a sign upon which is written "Ooh, look at me, I'm a pagan!" is one of the SCA equivalents to spray-painting a wall with graffiti.

For me, it all boils down to double standards. I've had snarling matches with neo-pagans before. Usually, such confrontation consisted of a Celti-Goth accosting me (dressed as a religious of some sort), accusing me of Ruining His Fun [tm] with me overt displays of religion. (I sometimes used to preach to the birds and beasts, like St Francis, but in no public way; I was properly dressed, of course.) While composing my verbal broadside, I would take in the trinkets and spangles of pagan nature adorning his neck, so as to have some ammo, and then observe that his overt displays of his religion were ruining my fun, too. "What's your solution, bub? Oh, and by the way, did you know your religion, which you claim is sooooo old and wise, was created in the late 19th century by an unemployed fake medium? Yeah. Just like Scientology. Oops. Sorry I crashed your worldview. Now buzz off, jackoff."

People can believe whatever they want. Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Satan, it's all the same to me, as long as you don't practice the same things for which you condemn me.

Here, you can have the damn soapbox.

Snaebjorn Hakonarson · Sat Apr 10, 2004 8:14 pm

Brewer. I only have one thing to say to that entire tirade.

VIVAT!

That is perfect man. I am happily pagan. And I'm just as happy to see a man or woman who is catholic come up with a cross. I don't wear any signs of my religion (which mind you I'm becoming more and more based in the Norse pantheon so at least I know my religion isn't fake!

) simply because I see no reason to. I wear a mjolnir because its what fits my period and this one happens to have been my anniversary gift from my wife so I never take it off.

Thank you much for being willing to stand up and show your pride. I don't mind someone being proud and if your just preaching to nature than thats cool with me. If you were to preach at me I would just ask you nicely not to and I have the suspicion that would be enough. If you ever come to pennsic war notify me and I'll be happy to share a brew with you some night and discuss religion. (I love to discuss religion. If you don't know what the other religions are offering how can you be rude about them?)

Bjorn Swiftaxe

Tom Knighton · Post by **Tom Knighton** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 7:55 am

Good for you Brewer!!!! I hate hipocracy, and people who want others to put away thier religion while openly displaying theres in the SCA are hipocrits.

I'm pagan. My persona is Christian. Why? Because by the late 12th Century, Ireland was pretty much completely Christian (I only say pretty much because there COULD have been this guy in Ulster.....). I have no problem with the laws the SCA has on the books about religion. Anything that is an official part of the structure of an event shouldn't be of a religous nature. But some of the ways people stretch it are bullshit. I hate to break it to some of the other pagans out there, but Christianity won in Europe! Just about every persona in the SCA, with a few notable exceptions, should be Christian, unless you are an earlier period Norseman (like Snaebjorn

). You don't want to be "overt" that your persona is Christian? That's cool, but don't get pissed because someone is wearing a cross or has a religious persona.

Personally, I have suggested to folks that they don't want to play a friar or monk, but that was because I knew the people. They didn't want to study medieval religion, they wanted an excuse to play Friar Tuck (yes, complete with a "quarterstaff"). Templars, Hospitaliers, Teutonics, Priests, Bishops, etc were all part of medieval history. They deserve to be studied, and to be remembered. Without thier efforts, today would probably be a lot different.

Bran

kass · Post by **kass** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:18 am

I think the biggest mistake the SCA makes about history, and the thing that its culture will likely never allow it to correct, is the inclusion of relgion in our portrayal of the Middle Ages. Believe me, I don't want anyone to force me to go to Mass again (18 years were enough, thank you). But I would like to see religion portrayed more accurately in the SCA.

My hand goes out to anyone with a personal belief system who can accept someone with a different belief system without trying to convert him. I'm of the opinion that God whispers in our ears individually and I don't know that he whispered the same thing to you as he did to me. So who am I to say you're wrong?

So bravo to those who aren't offended by someone being another religion. Well done!

But Alaric said something very true and I'd never thought of it that way: some people are offended by the existence of religion, not the actual act of someone preaching at them.

If you ask me to guess, I'll bet this is the same bunch of people who think that my dressing as historically accurately as I possibly can is designed expressly to make them feel inadequate. No matter how much you try to convince them that this is what I do and you are welcome to do whatever you like too, they are CERTAIN that you are talking down to them and being an elitist. <sigh>

I suppose we could burn them as heretics. That would be the Middle Ages as *I* want it to be at least... :lol:

Kass

Tom Knighton · Post by **Tom Knighton** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:42 am

You're probably right Kass, they want THEIR version of the Middle Ages, not the way it was...which had religion! And that religion was predominantly Christianity. I agree that I don't want forced religion in the SCA, but I would love to see people at least accept those who wish to follow through with the study and portrayal of a religious persona.

I'll support ANYONE who decides to portray a priest, friar, or other clerical figure, so long as they are willing to research it to do it right!

Bran

Snaebjorn Hakonarson · Sun Apr 11, 2004 9:26 am

One of the reasons I chose to do an early period persona is to avoid being christian. I'd feel it wrong to bear a cross at an event when I refuse to wear a cross in mundane life. Just a little idiosyncracy of mine. But I would love to see someone do the fully period religious persona. They had some of the simplest garb but some of the most interesting quirks. A correctly done religious persona I think would be cool.

And if someone is offended because there is religion or I like to look period I'd just tell them to go listen at a meeting of FUNY. (Freethinkers of Upstate New York) Its founded and run by a SCAdian friend of mine's father. He and my friend are both atheist. But he sat down with me and had a nice long talk about religion one night over dinner and we had a great time. He has no problem with people (including his wife) having religion as long as they don't force it on to him. This is the kind of mindset most people should have. I only wish there were more like him.

Bjorn Swiftaxe

kass · Post by **kass** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 9:53 am

I'm totally with you there, Bjorn. I love discussing ideas and beliefs with people -- any ideas and beliefs -- but I have learned to avoid the subject of religion and politics because most people cannot discuss their view without trying to convert you to it.

Not that I took away much of my personal beliefs from Catholic school, but one point they taught us in religion class was to have our life be a testament to our faith and not to be preachy about it. I guess that's the old "more flies with honey" idea.

It does my heart good to meet someone who is comfortable with their beliefs -- so comfortable that they don't have to convert the world. They are just a shining example of their faith.

Live and let live. That's what I say.

Except those who think polyester is a good idea. They need killin'! :twisted:

Kass

Jeff J · Post by **Jeff J** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 10:33 am

kass wrote:Except those who think polyester is a good idea. They need killin'!

BRUTHAHS AN SISTAHS, CAN I GIT AN "AMEN"?

kass · Post by **kass** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 10:36 am

I'd say "burn them at the stake", but the fumes would kill us all...

Kass

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 10:50 am

Actually, the SCA's policy on religion was as much in response to a fruit-loop pagan threatening to curse people and claiming to have "created" the good weather at events and wanting to extort to continue doing so, as anything else. I think the concern is also that they do not wish to be seen as endorsing any particular faith officially.

I have never seen anyone prevented or discouraged from portraying an ecclisiastical persona. Anyone doing so doesn't undertand the policy.

kass · Post by **kass** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 11:06 am

It's happened to Bob a lot, Owen. That's why he only does his monk persona in Living History nowadays. :roll:

But I agree completely that those people didn't understand the policy. But as he said, one of them was a Duchess and someone who's ruled the Kingdom multiple times really has no excuse.

Hell, if you met the people in question, you'd probably agree that they haven't read Corpora because they are barely literate. :lol:

Kass

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 11:29 am

I think Bob would make a good monk. Mind you, monks can't be married, so you'd be back on the market!

kass · Post by **kass** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 11:44 am

He makes a scarily-convincing monk, singing in Latin and all. It's kinda hard for an X-Catholic school girl to take! I mean, you're not supposed to find priests sexy... :oops:

Kass

brewer · Post by **brewer** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 4:26 pm

Behave! Rowr!

[Scots]

Ye like me?

Tha's bekase Hai'm DEAD SEXY, babby!

[/Scots]

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Kyrie.

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:06 pm

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Kyrie.

Khristos anesti! (and all that other stuff)

Effingham

Templar Bob/De Tyre · Post by **Templar Bob/De Tyre** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:30 am

Effingham wrote:
And I will prominently display the motto: "Deus Invicto"

Why? That means "God, I am undefeatable." If you mean "God is undefeatable" it's "Deus invictus." ("-o" is the first person verbal ending in Latin -- and as "Deus" is both nominative and vocative, it can only mean that you're talking to God and saying that you're undefeatable.)

Effingham:

As I understand the translation, it means "God Unconquered". I thought in order to refer to me, there would have to be the word "sum" involved, as in Deus Invicto Sum.

Perhaps it does need to be Deus Invictus instead...

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:53 am

As I understand the translation, it means "God Unconquered". I thought in order to refer to me, there would have to be the word "sum" involved, as in Deus Invicto Sum.

All those case endings in Latin are critical to meaning. The "invicto" is totally incorrect, but if you applied "sum" to "Deus invictus" it *would* be about you.

Actually, though, the big problem is that "Invictus" is a noun (for some odd reason I was looking at it as a verb with "invicto"), and the declined form "invicto" applies to the dative and ablative cases.

What that means for the Dative is that "invicto" means is that it would express the object of something receiving an action from a verb (e.g., "Deus amat invicto" = "God loves the invincible [ones]").

The ablative marks HOW something is done, sort of an adverbial case. So in this case, "invicto" is "by means of invincibility" (e.g., "[ab] invicto Deus amatme" = God loves me for my invincibility).

Deus invictus is "God the invincible" -- and could well be written with an "est" but it isn't necessary in such a structure it's an A=B format (this noun equals that noun) and is classically Roman.

Effingham

Hushgirl · Post by **Hushgirl** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:58 am

Re Heartburn Kitty:

I named it that.

brewer · Post by **brewer** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:29 pm

Effingham, you totally like rock, dude.

I just ran upstairs to get my Primer, and back-checked you.

Not that you ever need it.

Kids, you all need to hear, before you die, Effingham speak Japanese with a Swedish accent. Or, better yet, a Harvard rich-kid accent. They nearly caused a horrendous crash on I-287. :mrgreen:

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 6:10 pm

Effingham, you totally like rock, dude. I just ran upstairs to get my Primer, and back-checked you. Not that you ever need it.

Well, I do from time to time.

Why, I remember once back in 1987, when...

Kids, you all need to hear, before you die, Effingham speak Japanese with a Swedish accent. Or, better yet, a Harvard rich-kid accent. They nearly caused a horrendous crash on I-287.

Oh, sure. Blame me for that.

Effingham

Snaebjorn Hakonarson · Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:37 pm

Effingham-are you going to be camping with Clan Yama Kaminari this year at Pennsic? I would like to actually get to talk to you personally. Especially if you can speak japanese with a harvard accent! *L*

Bjorn Swiftaxe
aka Iwakawa Arimasa

Religion and the List Field

Re: RE: