Articulation question / problem?.....*pics added*

Maze · Post by **Maze** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 11:09 pm

well today i assembled my 5 pc articulated elbow..and after assembly i noticed something
and that is my question *ahem* when i bend my arm it is perfect articulation.....however when i straighten it the lames pile up in the centre....well exept for the outer ones but the both inner lames on both sides come right in to the middle.....i realise ....well at least i think i dont need the room in the middle of the cop when my arm is straightend.....but would this make this elbow peice head for the bad pile? or is this supposed to happen?

the inner lames dont catch the edge of the cop on the way back in....they just go right in.....mabey i dished them too much? but if they did catch the edges my arm wouldent be able to extend perfectly straight.....my freinds are telling me its fine, its physics....but can someone please tell me if it sounds right or wrong i need your input

thanks alot

~Steve

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 12:24 am

Sounds right to me; make your other arm do that too. If it moves with your arm, doesn't jam, and doesn't bite you no matter how you flex, it's good. If the joint does not allow you to hyperextend your elbow joint, so much the better for your elbow during a freak accident -- for these happen from time to time in combat and having armor that will ward you from them is a very good thing indeed.

Maze · Post by **Maze** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 12:29 am

thanks alot for the input Konstantin the Red i really appreciate it
now i can look at it without feeling ashamed of the work i thought i wasted on it.....now it feels better....thank you

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 3:32 am

Do you have any pics to share with us?

I have never made an articulated elbow before.

I tried an articulated gauntlet wrist and it gaped in the center real bad.

Hal

Sasha · Post by **Sasha** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 7:08 am

One of the hardest things to get right about articulating elbows is not the articulation but the strapping.

How the eklbow is strapped and pointed (if at all) will radically change its opening and closing characteristics (providing that the flow is fairly smooth and easy to start with).
Experiment by holding the armour to your arm in from different positions and mark the few that are likly to be worth exploring. Then decide which are worth drilling experimental holes for and use some VBcord or something to try the "string" method before going to straps.

Take a close look at armour book pics of fastening points. it makes a huge difference, especially on arms (because they move around lots and pivot in more ways then legs and you are strapping mass to the outside of them and wanting it not to fly or twist into unwanted directions.)

Sasha

very sleepy.

Maze · Post by **Maze** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 4:09 pm

i dont have pics yet but il working on getting some as soon as my camera comes back to me....

and yes strapping i was gonig to ask about that.....what kind of leather thickness and size would be ideal for strapping and does anyone have any strapping examples?

thanks

~Steve

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 5:20 pm

Strap breadth: 1/2" to 3/14". 7 to 8 ounce leather. Latigo leather is very good in this application, as it is tough even for leather and waxed and oiled heavily to resist wetting, sweat, and other environmental nasties.

I like to put the elbow strapping -- if any! -- a bit off the center of the elbow joint so it lies beside the elbow crease rather than directly upon it. With a closed vambrace and rerebrace, you may not even need an elbow strap. There are also schemes of pointing that you can use.

Maze · Post by **Maze** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 5:44 pm

ok im a little confused now....heh

straps are supposed to go on the bottom of the elbow cop? and not the sides?

if thats the case...i dont think i can do that since the lames pile up in the centre...and if i did up the strapping it would probably get in the way of the lames and i wouldent be able to fully extend my arm proporly

im starting to think again i did the articulation or the shaping of the lames wrong .....il post some pics as soon as possible so you guys can tell me if i did it right or wrong...since im not really good at describing things in great detail

thanks

~Steve

Tatsuo Okami · Post by **Tatsuo Okami** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 11:01 pm

Hi Zorro
As long as you can fit your arm in the elbow section when its straightened with out catching skin or pinching your elbow point ... you've got it right. As far as your outer edges of the lames catching on the cop when you straighten... depending on the period thats correct.. or not ;o) 13th Cent stuff has a tendency to move farther in (and meet in the middle sometimes). If the lames " disappear" into the cop (from an outside view) they are about perfect for late 13 early 14 hundreds... 15 th cent stuf is usually smaller lames less movement per piece..

Waiting for Pics ;o)

Maze · Post by **Maze** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:13 am

finnaly....i have some pics
so umm take a look and tell me what you think

scrap pile? or keeper?

ta daa here they are :
sorry theyre kinda big
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/z ... %20001.jpg
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/z ... %20002.jpg

now for the trainwreck in the center i spoke of.....brace yourself :wink:

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/z ... %20003.jpg
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/z ... %20004.jpg

the funny thing is i put my elbow in there and moved with it slow and fast and it doesent pinch

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 1:28 am

send them to me and make your self a new pair.

ajust your pattern try and get the lame articulation a little tighter.
play around a little with the placement of the articulation rivets.

Sasha · Post by **Sasha** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:18 am

Okay...well...theer is a lot that is right with them...But my real advice would be to immediately have a go at building another set and incorporate what you have learnt into them. They will be more worthy of your time to dick around with an refine.

You rushed it a little with this lot (understandable) and however much time you put into them now, they will always show that unless you rip out the rivets and go all the way back to basics. Makes more sense and efficiency to make another pair that I absolutely promise you will be BETTER (increments of improvment at the begginer level are really noticeable).

The cops themselves could benefit form a little mroe shape then the dome that seems to be going on (think more like two halves of a shell). I would also suspect that a small rerebrace with holes to point the armour to the gambeson would make a world of difference to how these ride when you use them.

Good work, though. I have seen many many many worse things from people that have been armouring for years (well, more accurately people that have been armouring their first year over and over for six or so years, in most cases. You know the type).

Sasha

Maze · Post by **Maze** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 11:03 am

allrighty...looks like im going to do this again *sigh* take four
so i have to make the articulation tighter....?
and any other ideas?
with the pattern should i extend the inner lame a bit outwards so it catches the edge?

after seeing the pictures what are some things you would change?
i want to get it right this time so i need to know what areas to do better in
im a bit confused with it heh
so any imput again would be greatly appreciated

thanks alot

~Steve

Angus Bjornssen · Post by **Angus Bjornssen** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 11:05 am

Zorro,
After checking out TOMAR (the only resource book I have in the house) I discovered that your articulation is not wrong necessarily.

TOMAR page 247, figure 20.19, shows the iside view of the original Churburg #13 arm harness at full extension. Guess what... the lames overlap just like the ones in your elbow do. Infact the lower first lame (vambrace side) overlaps the upper first lame and the edge of the rerebrace. So as you can see, your articulation is not "wrong" or "bad", it's correct for the mid 14th c when using the Churburg #13 arm harness as an example. Especially if it's functional and doesn't bite you.

The couter on the other hand is made the same way I've made all of mine. Yours looks a lot better than mine but still... :oops:

While looking at the articulation pics in TOMAR I realized something that I should have a long time ago. The shape of the couter in TOMAR (original #13 or the project piece) is dished or shaped deeply in the middle but much less so near the edges. Your couter appears to be dished evenly all the way around, so there is no relatively flatter sections near the edges. Take a good look at the arm harness "how to" in TOMAR and you'll see what I mean.

That's what I meant by your couter being the same as the ones I've made. I've dished the same form all the way to the edge on every one I've made. The main difference between yours and mine is that I haven't got the articulation to work right yet so you're about 12 steps ahead of me.

One last thing... it seems that your lames are dished to nearly the same curve as your couter. Another thing that I have done and not got to work right. When I look at other examples it seems that the lames are at best dished very shallow. Again, in TOMAR, it is recommended to dish slightly but the pics make the lames look like they are only curled instead of dished. I'll have to figure out how that works.

Overall, I'd say your elbow is very good.

Angus

Mulkster · Post by **Mulkster** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 11:40 pm

Hmmmm.....Nice Elbow. I'm not going to beat a dead horse, but you need to dish the cop deeper in the center than the edges. that and dish the lames abit shallower (on how to do this: I do a bad thing and use the ball of a 32 oz ball pien hammer and strike into a VERY shallow dish about 3" deep and about 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch deep.). Your Cop looks nice and smooth on the outside, unlike mine. Mine WAS a prototype however, mainly for articulation (I need to move the holes on the cop up about 1/8th of an inch). Well happy hammering.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 12:06 am

Zorroclean wrote:straps are supposed to go on the bottom of the elbow cop? and not the sides?

if thats the case...i dont think i can do that since the lames pile up in the centre...and if i did up the strapping it would probably get in the way of the lames and i wouldent be able to fully extend my arm proporly

If you don't have room on the edge of the cop to cheat the elbow strap a bit higher or a bit lower than your elbow crease, then, well, you don't have room. You might be perfectly happy with the strap centered -- again, if you do indeed need an elbow strap. Pointing your pourpoint to the lower part of the rerebrace might be enough.

On looking at your inside picture it sure looks to me like you have the option of putting your elbow strap a little higher or a little lower than right across center. Just don't rivet it too far inside the cop, and you can stay clear of the lames as they close.

A few SCAdians of my acquaintance have tried elbow-strapping to the first lame below the cop (probably), because they found a strap right at the elbow crease liked to dig into their arms more than they liked having their arms dug -- I doubt it's a historic method of doing this, but they seemed pleased with the comfort they gained. SCA engineers, ya know? Some other comfort hounds might decide they're going to put a roll to the mid parts of the elbow strap -- this: U, not this: __ -- so it's not a couple of flat strap edges digging into your skin, but a nice smooth curve -- for their next trick they fit a miniature aircon unit into a sallet. :twisted:

The trick of hiding a pretty good sized boda inside a peascod breastplate with a drinking tube attached to its neck and run up to the gorget has already been tried. It's said warm water quenches a heated man's thirst better than cold water does -- he doesn't end up craving the coolness as well as the liquid... The guy who tried it said he managed pretty nicely. I've carried a small, cheap boda onto Pennsic field and woods battles myself and I recommend the practice -- the handiest way to ward off heat exhaustion is to keep thy humours balancÃƒÂ¨d.

[edited to fix a spelling OMG]

Stacy Elliott · Post by **Stacy Elliott** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 3:02 am

My suggestions:

1. The holes on the cop *should* be of equal distance on both sides of the cop or as close to equal as you can. Yours look a little wide to me.

2. Also it seems that your rivets are a bit on the long side too. To cut the rivet to the right length I add a thick washer, in addition to the washer next to the cop, reach in with snips and cut, or at least mark the rivet, remove the rivet, cut it, replace it and peen it over just a little to keep the washer from falling off the rivet.. I then slide a really thin, 20 gauge fork between the washer that is staying and the cop. I then peen the rivet the rest of the way. I then remove the thin fork. This keep you from tightening the rivet too much against the Washer and Cop.

Hope that helps

ArtemisGreen · Post by **ArtemisGreen** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:00 am

They're all right. Those rivets are too long dude. You should clip them just barely longer than the 2 layers of metal.

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/a ... CF0018.JPG
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/a ... CF0019.JPG

It does seem (from the pics) that it was rushed a little. Take your dear sweet time on them. Also, wait until you get TOMAR. It will help you out about a thousand fold.

It is looking better though. Might want to try it just one more time. I think you can get it right this time.

Maze · Post by **Maze** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:59 am

allrighty...thanks alot for the input everyone....i started cutting the peices for a new cop last night and im working on it right now....gonna add more shape to the cop and this time when i put my holes in for articulation im gonig to make absolutly sure they are equal on each side.

also wth the 2 inner lames i think i might have gotten carried away with the inner curve on it with my bench grinder the curve seems a bit much then the pattern says so im gongi to double check that this time......
gonna try for closer articulation

and yes i shall clip my rivets this time

anything i missed??

oh ya il do my best not to rush anything hehe

well thanks alot for all the input, really appreciate it

~Steve

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 12:38 pm

From what I can see in the pics... the 2 lames are binding to tight together.

If you put the inside of the outermost lame over a ball stake, and tap the edge of the inside lame over the stake, it will loosen that up. Down side to this, it may cause them to gap when bent. :/

Maze · Post by **Maze** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 3:15 pm

hey all....i was just about ready to take my elbow peice to dish it when i got to thinking

on my last elbow it was a bit crooked ....than i asked myself why...so i explored that then it hit me in the head....if both sides arent equal size
like if the parallel point between my 2 sides are not of the same size like if one is more narrow then the other and i have measured holes in them
then chances are the lames will be lop sided and not function proporly
or one side may be collaberated to function proporly but the otherside will have a darastic change to it......am i making any sence so far? please stop me if im not, the large amount of thinking and juggling ideas and whatnot may be making me talk stupid heh...anyways i got to thinking i am using this pattern by Alan Bauldree
http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/elbow_ab/

now what i did the last elbow i made wich is me most current one is i dished it completely exept for the 2 edges and ya see side A
it narrows out towards the end....on my elbows i have been making that point parallel to where the wing starts... (could this possibly be why my cop has not been catching the edges? too much dishing and too loose fitting???

(right or wrong)

now i took some measurements today and i realsied
i have (probably) not been donig this correctly.....
now here is my question...

when i had the pattern do i fold it to where the point of where the wing starts and the other side are equal?
and make that the parallel point with the base of the wing on my elbow?
so on the inner side there is the narrow peice sticking out a bit?
or have i been reading the pattern right all along?

ok theres my rant can someone please set me straight on this....i feel i cannot touch my elbow project untill i have opinions on my question
because theres no sence in me doing it wrong again if i have ben donig it wrong i should of seen this and asked about it much earlyer

thanks

~Steve

(sorry if i havent been making any sence my rants are not known to be 100% understandable at times)

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/z ... ngside.jpg
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/z ... delbow.jpg

Angus Bjornssen · Post by **Angus Bjornssen** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:57 pm

Zorro,
The A/B line should be the centerpoint of the cop. Everything else should move from there. Yes there will be a little bit sticking forward on the inside of the elbow but that is probably to ensure inner elbow protection. Like a mini-wing.

The pattern is set up to be exact halves except for the wing and mini-wing as far as I can tell so try it that way. Put your holes in on the wing side first then match them to the same location on the other side, an equal distance from the centerline.

When you look at the pattern picture you can see that the mini-wing extends part of the length of the wing while the rest of the cop is even on both sides. Try drawing a centerline on the piece where the A/B line is on the pattern and dish evenly on both sides. Don't dish more on one side than you do on the other.

Another idea would be to fold the pattern where the wing starts and then fold the other side at the same point. Trace a line along the folds to show where to stop dishing.

I hope you can understand my rambling....

Angus

Articulation question / problem?.....pics added

Articulation question / problem?.....pics added

Articulation Insides