Garb / Houppelande question

[Æthan of Eppelhyrste]

I'm trying to narrow down a few decades for the Houppelande / Courtepy with the slit down the sleeve (arm going through with shirt/cote/doublet/tunic underneath). Nothing I've found seems definitive, and Racinet doesn't seem to coincide with other sources for a specific period.

Also, is there any evidence of this garment being worn over armor for combat/tournaments? Seems like it would make a very attractive covering for body armor.


(Lotsa /'s. Hee hee)

[Karl Helweg]

I am not enough of a guarb expert to narrow down the houpelands beyond 1450-ish. There was a very similar earlier fighting coat sometimes called a "crayfish." There is a nice drawing of one in the "Arms and Uniforms, Age of Chivalry Part 1" and several folks were talking about how good someone looked wearing on at last Gulf Wars (although I missed them somehow). There was also a later piece called a waffenrok in Germany and often associated with landsknect.

[Lachlann]

What is this crayfish arming coat you speak of ? I am familiar with the angelwing surcoat (Probably an SCA term)and wore one for a tourney at GW. Was the crayfish worn over the armor ?
ASking cause if I was actually wearing a crayfish instead of an angelwing then not only is it amusing to me I want to call the garment by the correct name.

Lachlann

[Æthan of Eppelhyrste]

I'm also curious... can't find any reference to the 'crayfish' (aside from the crawly bugger with less meat than a supermodel). Did this garment have 'angel sleeves' or were they hanging sleeves with slits, or a combination?

And can anybody narrow down the period for that slitted hanging sleeve houp? Chef, Kass, Otto, Bueller?

[James B.]

Seems to me that the houppelande starts in the late 1390s and it is a long open piece with huge sleeves and dags. In the 1430s they seem to be shorter and that split in the sleeve happens. In the 1450s it becomes a gown with the same sleeves.

I can post images of men in the 1460s and up with gowns with split sleeves on over armor, but it seems to mostly be troops not knights.

[Tailoress]

According to Joan Evan's Dress in Mediaeval France, the male houppelande first appears in French royal accounts by 1359. The garment, though named, is (as usual) not described sufficiently for us to know 100% for sure that it applies to the voluminously-fabricked gown that the SCA and other groups call a houppelande.

The female houppelande first makes its text-based appearance in 1387.

As for split sleeves, I seem to recall this was done earlier than 1430, but I don't have access to the manuscripts I'm thinking of presently and can't confirm right now.

-Tasha

edited to fix spelling

[Æthan of Eppelhyrste]

Flonzy, that would be great! Even as a troop... I want to get away from just a surcoat covering my placard, and that slit sleeve houppelande would, I think, look great over armor if done in a velvet or sturdy brocade.

Thanks!

[James B.]

Fist I just want to say Tasha has a better idea of dates on this stuff than I do, I don't do any real research between 1370s and 1450s, I was just recalling what I have seen in the art I got.

OK here are some images form the Jean Froissart Chronicles, the text is 14th c but it was illustrated in the 1460s.

The guy in the center has a long sleeve gown on over at least maille:
[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/images/gownsarmor/i4_0003.jpg[/img]

The guy down front towards the left side with the spear is wearing maille over the shoulders and has metal arms:
[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/images/gownsarmor/i4_0010.jpg[/img]

Here a noble man, maybe the king I don't have the text here, is wearing full plate and has a gown over it:
[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/images/gownsarmor/i4_0065.jpg[/img]

This is from another French manuscript that I don't have the info handy for but it is early 1470s. You can see the men in this image have short sleeves with breastplates over and some have brigs on.
[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/images/gownsarmor/MIMI_MMW_10A11_004V_MIN_2.jpg[/img]

[Karl Helweg]

OK, I'm server challenged here (or just haven't figured it out yet). I have a nice picture of a crayfish but now way to post it here. If someone would please e-mail me at THEKarlMarx@cs.com, I'll forward the scanned picture.

[Æthan of Eppelhyrste]

Those pics are -great-!!! Just what I was looking for, thank you so much!

I'll be modeling my kit after the fellow in the 2nd picture, I think.

Thanks again!

[Æthan of Eppelhyrste]

Question: How similar were the styles of France and England(ish)? Would this representation be accurate for the Isles?

If not (or even if so), would anybody have any evidence of this manner of garment and/or garment/armor being worn in the isles about the same time period?

[BaronAdhemar]

Chronicles illuminated in England in this period show basically the same sorts of fashions. One could argue that this is a trans channel artistic convention rather than a trans channel fashion convention... But generally speaking the fashions of the time are similar as far as portrayal in images goes....