Garb/Footwear question.

Endymion · Post by **Endymion** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 10:28 pm

I realise that this isnt about armour, but Ive seen queries on garb and the like on here as well, so I figure that I ought to be safe in asking.

While Im working out my armour, Im also trying to put together a set of garb that is something other than the SCA-generic tunic look. Im new to the society, but I do have a time and place picked out: Northern Italy in the late 1400s. (Im aiming, generally, for about 1480 and possibly as far north as Savoy). Ive found a terribly kind person to help me with much of the garb itself, but Im a little stumped on what to do for footwear. What I am generally aiming for is the sort of slightly-slouchy calf boot that seems to be fairly widespread and common. I good picture of what I mean is in Botticelli's Nastagio degli Onesti.

I need help with a couple of points:

1) Just on intuition, Im guessing that they're made of soft leather (some sort of thick fabric?) with the top turned to give that two-color effect. Anyone know what they would be made from?

2) Does anyone know if someone produces shoes of this type, and if so, who? Ive seen a great deal of 'robin hood' and 'cavalier' boots, a range of moccasins, but nothing that really matches.

3) Are these feasible for someone without great experience to make themselves? If so, what would one need and where might one find a pattern to attempt to do so?

4) Just sort of because... if you've done this period and look before, what did you use for footwear?

Thank you for any advice given or help rendered, or even for taking the time to read at all.

Engenulf · Post by **Engenulf** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 4:32 am

not my period, but here is page that gets tossed out alot when people are looking for shoe information. that paticular page is for shoe styles from 1300 to 1450. A friend and I each made a pair of shoes based on Marc Carlsons patterns and they turned out well.
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-ca ... /SLIST.HTM

Navigate around to the main page and he give tips on what tools and techniqes and type of leather to use. My friend and I used only an awl, hobby knife,leather needles and waxed thread to make ours. You will find that other tools like lasts are suggested but I got along fine without.
good luck .
Engenulf

Endymion · Post by **Endymion** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 1:20 am

Thank you for the link and the suggestion. I worry that I'll try and make my own and end up simply mutilating a piece of leather, but I realise that I wont really learn without getting my hands dirty and making mistakes. I might continue to rough it a little longer until I have a little more experience with it though. The summer is coming up, and that seems like a good time to work on these things. =)

Engenulf · Post by **Engenulf** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:21 am

no point in mangling a perfectly good peice of leather, when we made my friends shoes we used felt to make a mock-up pattern and that helped out alot.

HvR · Post by **HvR** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:53 am

I made a couple of pairs of shoes without a foot stay - I made a foot stay and my shoes are turning out much much nicer. The fit and form is night and day to making a shoe without one. I would highly recommend that you take the time to obtain / make a stay as you will find that leather will stretch in ways that will look and feel much better on your feet by attaching it to the foot form before you sew.

I found an easy way to "cheat" and make a fast stay that is somewhat disposable was to take the sole pattern I was going to need and cut it out of a 2 inch thick piece of board. I then took a duct tape form of my foot - cut it off my foot (recommend wearing a sock before you start taping) and cut it down the side and your foot will pull out.

After you have the tape form off (make it a couple of layers thick) re-tape the cut area closed for a perfect form of your foot after you insert the wooden sole into the form. If you are making a poulaine (pointy toed shoe) you will have to cut out a slot in the tape form and make some minor modifications etc.

I then took foam and packed the space above the form to give the foot vamp (top of your foot) a rigid fill. Pack it as hard and full as you can get it and then tape the top of the foot closed so the foam doesn't push out.

Now you have a stay that you can nail your leather sole and the sides of your vamp and heel to so that you can form your leather and sew it.

I would eventually like to have a solid wooden stay, but the time to make one and the difficulty in finding one to buy has prevented me from going to this next level of tool.

I recommend using a cheap leather to experiment with on your first one. You will find that there are minor cuts and angles that you will have to change in your patterns to get the heels to feel right and as you start expanding into making shoes with rands and turn welt styles you will find that your sole pattern that worked on a simple turnshoe will no longer fit quite right using these more advanced techniques. After you make a couple of pairs you will find a vast improvement in your technique.

Helmut

Endymion · Post by **Endymion** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 9:49 am

Thank you, HvR. Having a stay (the same thing as a last, yes?) sounds likeit does make the process a little easier. I think that I'll give your method a go for making an easy version of one.

I do have a question or two, though. I have been reading through the tutorial on the site Engenulf directed me too, which has been very informative. But theres one thing that Im still a little uncertain of. If you make a turnshoe on a right-foot stay, and then turn it inside out, its going to be become a left-footed shoe, correct? That seems to be the case in the images it shows, but I thought I should check. If this is the case, then has anyone had trouble with a show made on a last of your one foot not fitting well on the other when finished? I ask because Ive been told feet arent actually symmetrical.

Second, it just seems to me that if the sole of a shoe is soft enough (even considering soaking) to be turned, its going to be pretty thin and pliable by modern standards. While I dont intend to use them for running-jumping-climbing-trees sort of things, Id like to be able to walk from camp to revel without much discomfort. (I realise this is a slightly goofy question because people in period must have done a lot of activity in this sort of shoe, but modern life and soles have made me weak). To people that have used them, has there been any issue with too soft or tractionless soles?

Thanks again for the help.

Engenulf · Post by **Engenulf** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:41 pm

Using a last will make you shoes turn out alot better, and it is more period appropriate

I unfortunatly do not have a last so I make due without.

As far as soles go, in one book that I have read it states that anglo saxon and scandanavian turnshoe soles were the same oz. leather as the upper.
which makes for more of a leather sock rather then our modern idea of a shoe. but my friend and I cheated and used a thicker oz. of leather, But since you are making shoes of a later period then I think it would be perfectly acceptable to give your shoes "clump soles". Or go one better and make or buy a pair of pattens.

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 10:10 pm

I think it would be perfectly acceptable to give your shoes "clump soles". Or go one better and make or buy a pair of pattens.

The easiest option (though you'll get odd looks) is to make the normal turnshoe and then go to your local shoewright or cobbler (anywhere you can get shoes re-soled) and ask him to put a sole on it for you. It's not expensive, and it's a professionally attached sole.

Effingham

HvR · Post by **HvR** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 7:47 am

Yes, I meant to say last not stay on the foot form - one beer too many methinks when I typed this.... :lol:

I have not had any problems with mine as I made the soles the same size when I invert the shoe onto the other last. There are some minor variations in size, but I didn't notice any problem with mine - maybe the foam I used to pack my form allowed for some minor "squeezing" to allow the to transfer from one last to the other.

You may want to look at making a turn welt shoe for sole thickness. This would provide you with a double thickness sole and you could use a heavier leather for the second sole that is attached using the turn welt technique - see Shoes and Pattens book - great reference to footwear and it clearly outlines the technique for making these shoes.

I made a simple hinged patten as well and found that these worked great particularly in "soggy" weather. I made my first pair out of one (1) inch thick board to keep the weight down (plus this was the wood I had available at the time). I realize that they are not quite as thick as period pattens, but my feet (soles) never once got soaked wearing them and they are very easy to make. The leather hinged style were actually very easy to walk in - haven't tried a leather or full piece patten yet.

Helmut