Kingdom stereotypes?

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:05 am

Greetings,
I am not sure if this is the correct board to post this on but here goes:

My knight recently asked a question about a very specific thing dealing with the way my kingdom presents itself on a certain subject to "the Known World" ( specifics removed from this so as to not de-rail my true question).

As I thought on his question to me, it got me thinking about general stereotypes that we (meaning my kingdom) have about other kingdoms and what other kingdoms have about us?

Please remember, I am not trying to start a flame war, I am honestly trying to gather some info about the way kingdoms perceive each other in hopes to some day better those relations.

So, in the spirit of research and comradery: What are the "stereotypes" or rumors you have heard spoken about other kingdoms? Both good
AND bad.

So as to try and NOT have any flame wars start, please post your SCA name and Kingdom so we know who we are talking to.

I am Ld. Aiden O'Seaghdha
Kingdom of Calontir

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:11 am

I don't know about what the stereotypes ARE, but I'd like one of them to be is that we are the most period-correct in the Knowne World, but I'm sure its not. Damn.

Lance
Canton of Aston Tor,
Barony of Forgotten Sea,
The Kingdom of Calontir

Tom Knighton · Post by **Tom Knighton** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:30 am

The stereotype that sticks with me most is that Atlantian's are rhino's. I know NOW that it is bull, but when I first started I didn't know better.

I'm Meridian. We supposedly can't hit hard. We CAN, we just take way to light.

Bran

DarkApprentice · Post by **DarkApprentice** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:49 am

Aethelmearc- starting to form its own identity with a few of top level fighters- although Christoper just switched to early period. Still finding its own feet.

Ansteorra- Inman influenced. Large rectangular shields. Everyone used to wear a Blue and brass "Inman and Athena" helmet. Starting to change now that Inman doesn't really play anymore (shame). Takes and hits at standard SCA levels. Mix of periods.

An Tir- very early period. Reasonably period correct overall (for early period). Hits solid, takes solid. Lots of good fighters. Top level fighters among the best.

Artemisia- see Atenveldt. Not enough time to establish its own identity. Generally nice armor- later period. hits medium SCA.

Atenveldt- Hits reasonably hard, takes reasonably hard. Lots of nice armor- mostly later periods. Top level fighters are among the best.

Atlantia- wears a lot of stainless 14th Century- hits hard and takes hard. Many other kingdoms consider them thick. Top level fighters among the best.

Caid- Used to dress well. Mix of Viking and 14th Century- pretty period stuff. Hits medium SCA. Most of their great fighters have quit in the last few years.

Calontir- Most period shoes on the field. Actually moved at Pennsic last year. Seems to be mostly early period. Not known for singles fighting. Lots of purple.

Drachenwald- reasonably period- mix of periods. Good spearmen.

Ealdormere- Broke off from the MidRealm too soon, and has a fighter gap, much like Northshield probably will when it breaks away next year. Their fighters are young and getting better, and they are all going to Detroit to get trained (where Brannos is).

East- Several distinct groups including the 14th Century NJ fighters who wear a lot of plate and stainless. Northern Army- used to be a lot of stick jocks who threw tabards over their hockey gear for their "summer season." Northern Army is cleaning up a lot though (thanks WMA). They fight at the top level in the SCA, hit reasonably sold and take reasonably solid. Top level fighters among the best.

Lochach- Not enough time to establish its own identity. The guys are fun to drink with though.

Mid Realm- Well dressed- although some stick jockies. Top level guys are among the best in the knowne world. Takes at SCA Medium. Working hard to make their war tactics and execution better. Lots of variation from high to low fighters, but with one of the largest populations in the SCA that is bound to happen. Nice Kingdom all around.

Meridies- wears not much armor- although wearing more. Reasonably period. hits too light takes too light (except for guys like Gareth and Alieghnan who hit and take as hard as everyone else. It is curious actually that the top level guys are consistent with the known world, but the rest of the kingdom is so far off). lots of early period people. Top level fighters among the best.

Outlands- Some top level fighters- nice early period gear. Hits medium SCA. Good people.

Trimaris- used to be very Baldar and Aeryn influenced- i.e. lots of leather armor (Dun Tir did look like the cockroach brigade), used to require these small rectangular shields in Crown, so you could tell who the better guys from Trimaris used to be because they would all be using them, all used to use short swords and mega vambraces, so arms were thick as hell, but that has changed as more people are using long swords. Used to take lightly, but that is changing as the armor in Trimaris shifts to more later period stuff than all the Roman-Brit stuff everyone used to wear.

West- Lots of great armor from all periods. Hardest hitting and taking kingdom. Lots of great fighters. It all started here. Top level fighters among the best.

DA

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 10:18 am

Matthias Fledermus of the outlands has heard the following stereotypes:

Caidians are foppish dandys - my eval, false. They are capable fighters who also like to look nice.

Nobody in Ansteroa fights with anything but a 3 foot by 4 foot barn door sheild - my eval... unknown, only met 2 ansteorans in person, and never saw either fight. I can't imagine it being a lot of fun like that, I am disinclined to beleive it.

Atlantians are Rhinos - my eval, false, based on one encounter with one atlantian (lefty) which brings up mempries of aching ribs. The gentleman did strike at a higher power level than I was accustomed to, but not excessively, and took shots as I would have expected anyone to.

Calontir guys sing - my eval true... adds a lot of color to the war.

Attenveldt is a bunch of rhinos - my eval a false sterotype not neccisarily based in fiction. I've seen some shrug off shots that I know by god I'd have taken. many others tho are just fine. I should maybe point out that Atten is the only other kingdom I have spent significant time in... I lived there for one year. It was... different.

Outlanders *ALL* wear plastic armor and nothing but plastic - my eval... false. We have steel helmets. *sigh* I'm not one of those rabid people that is pschoticly opposed to plastic. But for the love of god put some effort into it. Sir Haroun makes some spiff plastic legs... they work great, but wear pants over them. I'm no saint myself... I have more plastic in my kit than I care for. I'm phasing it out as I can. The plastic is not really my BIGGEST complaint tho. My kit is about 80% plastic/pads, but it is at least somewhat presentable. Sir Haroun wears an all plastic rig, and I think it is fairly presentable too (wait... he traded out for titainiam bazubands). Ther are fighters here that have some more period material kits... leather with steel splints... but... NO FRIGGIN MAINTAINANCE done for the past 100 years. Even the period-ish kits look like cast away mad max trash. (sigh). If you think for a minute that your ratty tabbard covers up your hokey goalie greaves you ain't kiddin no one but you. Rambling here, because it's home.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:49 am

ok, come on guys/gals. This thread has been read 107 times and only 4 replies.

I know there are alot of perseived stereotypes of kingdoms in the SCA.

These are the ones I have heard. I am not saying they are true, just that I have heard them:

Atlantia:
Hits like a ton of bricks. You have to hit them with a ton of bricks for them to take it.

Atenveldt:
Won't take shots. They like to die "aggressively".

Outlands:
The plastic kingdom

Antsteorra:
Love fighting with big barn door shields.

An Tir:
Kingdom is run by households.

Calontir:
"everyone is rich, they all have period pavilions"
the singing Kingdom
The Tribe
Hates Fencing
Hates shafted arrows

East:
Only fight in tourneys. Everyone fights Sword and sheild

Mid Realm:
very stiff. Takes themselves to seriously.

Meridies:
hits to light, takes to light.
everyone is either a fencer,archer, or equestrian.
no one goes hungry at a Meridian event.

West:
All tourney fighters.

I know these stereotypes are not true, this is just what I have heard. And of course being from Calontir, I don't hear the bad rumors about my kingdom. Those are the ones I am interested in finding out about and then finding a way to change them.

Ld. Aiden O'Seaghdha
Calontir

muttman · Post by **muttman** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:29 pm

"East:
Only fight in tourneys. Everyone fights Sword and sheild"

That one is just funny! The East in general and the Northern Army especialy, is likely the most melee intensive area in the known world!
As to just S&S, the Northern Army is well known for aggressive and plentyfull polearms amongst its "foes", tho there is a LOT of stick and board too. Not hacking on you, just not sure how that impresion came about.

"East- Several distinct groups including the 14th Century NJ fighters who wear a lot of plate and stainless."
These would be mostly my distant "cousins" the Von Halsterns. Great folks and great fighters. I love fighting them to get more work against high quality heater shieldmen. Bloodgaurd wears a lot of late period stainless too and is in the same region

"Northern Army- used to be a lot of stick jocks who threw tabards over their hockey gear for their "summer season." Northern Army is cleaning up a lot though (thanks WMA). They fight at the top level in the SCA, hit reasonably sold and take reasonably solid. Top level fighters among the best""

The stick jock impression was true to a good extent. This is changing dramaticly of late. WMAs gear has a lot to do with that, but a growing number of people with an actual interest in period presentation buying and wearing WMA (and other fine armorers) gear is the bigger reason. Dedicated individuals leading by example is where its at! N.A.B.B.E.M. at work! (Northern Army Beutification By Example Movement) We are finaly starting to look as good as we fight!
Drefan/John

carlyle · Post by **carlyle** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:32 pm

Why do I just know we're in for a round of "lightbulb jokes" any moment now?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:44 pm

I'll bite Carlyle...

How many Atlantians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Gaston de Vieuxchamps · Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:59 pm

DarkApprentice wrote:Meridies- wears not much armor- although wearing more. Reasonably period. hits too light takes too light (except for guys like Gareth and Alieghnan who hit and take as hard as everyone else. It is curious actually that the top level guys are consistent with the known world, but the rest of the kingdom is so far off). lots of early period people. Top level fighters among the best.

This is one thing that I have to object to. Aliegnon and Gareth might throw plenty of hard shots as all top fighters do, but they still CALL blows like Meridians. If you think that one of those guys is calling blows harder than the kingdom average, then then your eyes must be too slow to see the blocks. Seriously, there seems to be this idea that anyone who throws hard must also call hard and that is false. It is a pleasant fiction employed by people who call their blows too hard that gives them some kind of excuse for their own reprehensible behavior. "I throw hard shots so therefore it's ok for me not to call blows the same as my neighbhors. It's a special priviledge that comes with practice. See, THOSE guys do it too." Well, not all those guys do it! Gareth doesn't do it. Alieghnan doesn't do it. Max doesn't do it. Baldar doesn't do it. Gregory doesn't do it. All of those guys are top fighters and manage to be top fighters without taking special advantages for themselves in calibration. My own goal is to be a part of that club that throws hard and calls clean, not the other one that "takes hard".

Heairn · Post by **Heairn** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:18 pm

Broadway wrote:I'll bite Carlyle...

How many Atlantians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Ans: 2. One to break it while putting it in, and the second to call (for the next) "Light"....

Malcolm
(Atlantian expatriate, living comfortably in a keep in Aethelmearc..)

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:20 pm

Broadway wrote:I'll bite Carlyle...

How many Atlantians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

1. None. Lightbulbs aren't invented yet.

2. Not sure but they keep yelling "LIGHT" at it?

Marvin · Post by **Marvin** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:24 pm

What Gaston said. Okay, as soon as I ever land a stick on Gareth I'll let you know - but as far as Max and Ailgheanan are concerned, they take what I'm throwing and I guarantee that's about as average Meridian as you're liable to get hit with. I just wish I could hit them more.

---edited because my grammer stinks ----

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:53 pm

FYI - It is Middle Kingdom

Midrealm refers to a specific part of the middle kingdom (IL region specifically.)

The main rumors I have heard are the Atlantia and the West hit well above the norm for the SCA and the Meridies hits lighter.

Lachlann · Post by **Lachlann** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:55 pm

Most entertaining thing overheard on a Gulf Wars battle field.

Two Atlantian knights walking off the field dead and talking.
One says to the other "You know that stuff about Meridians hitting light is a bunch of crap!"

True story.

gmandragora · Post by **gmandragora** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:58 pm

Huh???

I thought the whole kingdom was often reffered to as the Midrealm and the Illinios was Midlands???

Geoffrey

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:09 pm

Gmandagora you are correct. Wulfe is in error and should consult his Pale to find the correct names of the other regions before he labels Indiana as "Constipation" instead of "Constellation".

Captain Jamie

gmandragora · Post by **gmandragora** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:21 pm

Damn, now I am confused, I thought Indiana WAS Constipation

Geoffrey

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:32 pm

Since it is quite literally a quip at me (for what reason I do not know) and I do not wish to be baited into some senseless conflict, I will simply state that I was mistaken. I, at one point, had called the Middle Kingdom, The Midrealm, and was corrected with what I had stated.

carlyle · Post by **carlyle** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:35 pm

Midrealm is -- and has been for as long as I have known -- synonymous with Middle Kingdom, though the latter is the "official" name. Midlands is the name of the region encompassing the state of Illinois.

Hope this helps... AoC

broinnfinn · Post by **broinnfinn** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:35 pm

Marvin wrote:What Gaston said. Okay, as soon as I ever land a stick on Gareth I'll let you know - but as far as Max and Ailgheanan are concerned, they take what I'm throwing and I guarantee that's about as average Meridian as you're liable to get hit with. I just wish I could hit them more.

---edited because my grammer stinks ----

Absolutely (not about your grammar). In fact, I recently had the extreme good fortune to kill Duke Gareth in a list (he came back to beat me in the finals), and if he had chosen not to call the shot I got him with (upper chest/armpit), it would have been just dandy with me. I think he is absolutely Meridian Standard. And Count Maximillian is VERY vocal in his insistence on calling shots clean - he is well known for this pet peeve.

Broinnfinn

broinnfinn · Post by **broinnfinn** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:49 pm

Lachlann wrote:Most entertaining thing overheard on a Gulf Wars battle field.

Two Atlantian knights walking off the field dead and talking.
One says to the other "You know that stuff about Meridians hitting light is a bunch of crap!"

True story.

I think the problem is that folks think that because we take on the light side, that we can't ramp up, or we won't. When it's not just between us Meridians, we take the "when in Rome" approach. The difficult part is coming back down a notch after we come home. Refusing to escalate within our own borders has become a part of our personality and culture. We like it that way.

As for wearing no armor - well, try full plate in 95 degree heat with 75% humidity. That's what I had when I moved down here in 1988. Didn't take me long to start replacing pieces. Maintainance can also be a bear in a place where damp armor stays damp. Hell, everything stays damp. Explains the proliferation of plastic and stainless, and earlier period personas here, particularly on the Gulf Coast. At least we hide our plastic and don't allow sneakers, cleats or plastic shields. We do have some pride.

Broinnfinn

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:33 pm

Calontir:
"everyone is rich, they all have period pavilions"
the singing Kingdom
The Tribe
Hates Fencing
Hates shafted arrows

Most of us are dirt poor....we just make our own stuffs. It's cheaper, if you already own a strong enough sewing machine. Otherwise, It's really taxing on the fingers to sew canvas by hand.(Good lord my fingers still hurt) The singing part, well, yeah I'm always hearin it. People singing, that is.

(edited cuz i always forget stuff)

Gaston de Vieuxchamps · Sat Apr 17, 2004 2:42 am

broinnfinn wrote:As for wearing no armor - well, try full plate in 95 degree heat with 75% humidity.

OK!

Sorry, couldn't resist. You are right though about stuff staying wet all the time. In Trimaris and Meridies mild steel is less common than in many areas. Leather is uncommon in Trimaris except for the remaining Dun Tyr folks, and spring steel is unlikely to catch on very quickly down here until the blackened finishes prove their durability. We have a lot of aluminum, and decent amount of plastic, and a fair amount of stainless. All the leather tends to be waxed.

DWolfhunter · Post by **DWolfhunter** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 9:58 am

It's nice to see how y'all seem to either sell AEthelmearc short or forget we exist entirely...makes sneaking up and gakking y'all just that much easier :lol:

Our Ealdormere and Midrealm cousins have learned to tread with care in AEthelmearc. The burned hand...or in this case the bruised arse, teaches best. Our fighting households and our tactical skills are quite capable of standing the test of battle from any outland force.
Duke Christopher is by no means the only great stick and "light of combat wisdom" here. Dukes Morguhn, Cygnus, James are all great fighters. Their houses and those who live near them cannot help but elevate their game to compete. As for the rest the chivalry of AEthelmearc are as capable and puissant as any in the KW.
We have not forgotten nor forsaken our Eastern roots but the tree that grew from them is very much it's own kingdom. See y'all at Pennsic.

Baron Hamish

Baron Hamish

Loegaire mac Gilray · Post by **Loegaire mac Gilray** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 6:38 pm

broinnfinn wrote:At least we hide our plastic and don't allow sneakers, cleats or plastic shields. We do have some pride.

You don't allow cleats at all, or do they just have to be covered? I'm about to move to Atlanta and am trying to get my armour up to Meridian spec before I go.

-Loegaire, who was told he had to put foam in his breastplate as well

Heairn · Post by **Heairn** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:12 pm

HAMISH!!

Hark! Shush!! Doggone it.. It's hard enough to be stealthy with Andrew jumping around.

/waving hand... "this is not the Kingdom you're looking for. There is no Aethelmearc....."

Malcolm

Lachlann · Post by **Lachlann** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:14 pm

You must wear boots to fight in.
Unless someone changed the rule again when I wasnt looking.
Max set that rule when he was on the throne and I have to agree with him, its much safer, plus its just bites being dead and having someone in cleats step on that lightly armored area you thought was covered!

Lachlann

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:50 pm

just a point to note, boots are not safer than cleats for sca sport combat. there are really very few boots designed for the types of movement that is commonplace in sca combat. cleats, on the other hand, are the most supportive and safest footwear for sca combat as far as arch and ankle support.

and you are correct, being stepped on by cleats sucks!

regards
logan

Lachlann wrote:You must wear boots to fight in.
Unless someone changed the rule again when I wasnt looking.
Max set that rule when he was on the throne and I have to agree with him, its much safer, plus its just bites being dead and having someone in cleats step on that lightly armored area you thought was covered!

Lachlann

Ceddie · Post by **Ceddie** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 7:36 am

Loegaire mac Gilray wrote:
broinnfinn wrote:At least we hide our plastic and don't allow sneakers, cleats or plastic shields. We do have some pride.

You don't allow cleats at all, or do they just have to be covered? I'm about to move to Atlanta and am trying to get my armour up to Meridian spec before I go.

-Loegaire, who was told he had to put foam in his breastplate as well

Your wearing an Icefalcon cherburg and you were told it's got to be padded? Why? By who? P;ease tell me your kidding!

St. George · Post by **St. George** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:09 am

I hate moronic marshalls who make seemingly random judgment calls about padding out of thin air. Why on Earth and who (if they are anyone of note) told you that you have to pad a cherbourg breastplate?

And- if you have boot tops sewn onto cleat tops, why would this be illegal? You can't really see the difference, and they are safer than regular boots.

Alaric

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:39 am

DukeAlaric wrote:I hate moronic marshalls who make seemingly random judgment calls about padding out of thin air. Why on Earth and who (if they are anyone of note) told you that you have to pad a cherbourg breastplate?

Not that I neccisarily agree with the marshal in question but...

from the marshalls handbook (emphasis mine):
armor standards:

4. Body, shoulder and groin armor.
a. The kidney area, the short ribs, and lower spine shall be covered by a minimum of heavy leather worn over 1/4 inch (6mm) closed cell foam or equivilent padding

So I can see where his mind may have been wandering from.... also kingdom standards may vary from that. Wearing a cherburg breastplate directly over your bare belly skin (um... if that's what you like I guess) would in fact be in violation of the rules. a padded garment of any kind should easily qualify as equivilent.

Something deffinitely smells like marshal speaking from his arse rather than font of knowledge tho.

Marvin · Post by **Marvin** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:34 pm

That is correct.

My gambeson under a COP is legal. The COP without the gambeson is iffy. The operational word here is "equivilent".

Gaston de Vieuxchamps · Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:41 pm

mattmaus wrote:from the marshalls handbook (emphasis mine):
armor standards:

4. Body, shoulder and groin armor.
a. The kidney area, the short ribs, and lower spine shall be covered by a minimum of heavy leather worn over 1/4 inch (6mm) closed cell foam or equivilent padding

OK, this is a grammar problem. the phrase "a minimum of....or equivalent padding" means that you must wear something that is at least as protective as heavy leather over 1/4" padding. Heavy leather alone is less protective and therefore does not meet the rule. Metal plate alone is more protective and thus is legal. Someone seems to have interpreted the sentance as two independent assertions:You must have a minimum of heavy leather AND you must have a minimum of 1/4" of foam.

Even so, this does not mitigate the ignorance since he and others were specifically told that they needed to put blue camping pad under their rigid metal breastplates--not even just over the kidney and short ribs. Blue camp pad is 1/2".

I've seen plenty of Meridian knights in nothing but 6-8oz leather over foam kidney belts, yet stainless Churburg isn't safe enough.

Additionally, at least one of our fighters was told that his alluminum breastplate wasn't safe because the corners weren't rounded enough.

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 3:24 pm

Gaston de Vieuxchamps wrote:OK, this is a grammar problem. the phrase "a minimum of....or equivalent padding" means that you must wear something that is at least as protective as heavy leather over 1/4" padding. Heavy leather alone is less protective and therefore does not meet the rule. Metal plate alone is more protective and thus is legal. Someone seems to have interpreted the sentance as two independent assertions:You must have a minimum of heavy leather AND you must have a minimum of 1/4" of foam.

I'm not trying to be a pain. Really I'm not. So please don't take anything I'm about to say as such. I, like you, don't like the way it reads either and feel that it is something that needs to be clarified in writing.

The way that it reads to me, is that you must have 1/4 inch leather AND 1/4 inch padding.

the way it reads, (and I quoted that right out of thae handbook)

"The kidney area, the short ribs, and lower spine shall be covered by a minimum of heavy leather worn over 1/4 inch (6mm) closed cell foam or equivilent padding"

Pretty plainly states that you must have equivilent padding. If you want to get really assinine (my OPINION) about it, you could read it to mean that you MUST have heavy leather, AND you must have 1/4 inch padding, and anything you wanted to wear like a BP would be supplimental to that as your own choice. Not terribly damned realistic....

If we were to change it only slightly...

"The kidney area, the short ribs, and lower spine shall be covered by a minimum of heavy leather worn over 1/4 inch (6mm) closed cell foam padding or equivilent." (moved the word padding to before words or equiv)

It makes things much better all around (again, my opinion). We all know that steel is greater protection than leather (otherwise we'd wear leather helmets) and that 16 or even 18 gauge steel over a gambeson by far surpasses the protection that you would get from leather and padding. None of that is my point exactly tho.

The document reads poorly in accordance with what I suspect intent to be in that regard. Way back in the dawn of the SCA timeline, the marshals handbook was no doubt written to keep us reasonably safe from injury while combating. That is far and away a secondary purpose now. It has evolved into a document designed to keep the SCA safe from lawsuits. I'm not anti-lawyer, but the bad ones who want to get rich at someone elses expense would be more than happy to quibble the difference in placement of a single word, especialy if it means a fat check is in the mail.

Anyone know an e-mail for the SCA Marshalate? This could possibly be something that needs attention.