Leather Aventail

Sevrin le Merle · Post by **Sevrin le Merle** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 2:14 pm

I'm going on a pilgrimage to the leather store tomorrow, and I want to pick up materials for a leather aventail.

Would someone kindly post instructions (or a link to them) on what I'll need and how to put it together?

Thanks!

taltosh · Post by **taltosh** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 3:31 pm

Please be a bit more specific. Are you planning a lamellar type, splinted, brig, scale? This will make a difference in what you should be looking for

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YMMV

Yeoman Chris
Artisan, Clerk, Man At Arms
Editor of the KnightHaven newsletter

Sevrin le Merle · Post by **Sevrin le Merle** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 3:37 pm

Hehehe, you'd think as a programmer I would have known to be more specific.

I want to make something that is protective and light. I was thinking about making a leather aventail with small squares or strips of metal riveted to the inside.

If there are better designs, I'm all ears. What I'm really curious about is what weight of leather to use. They guys around here have maille camails, so I haven't had anything else to get ideas from.

knyaz · Post by **knyaz** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 3:49 pm

As I've written somewhere else on this board (Don't ask me I can't find it either) I use a waxed leather scale aventail on one of my helms. The scales are 2.5" long by 2" wide. they are rivet with two rivets at the top of each and do not overlap horizontally. Each row over laps the row below it by about .5". the scales are riveted to 12oz canvas duck, though I would use 4oz leather in the future. You can oil leather to keep it supple. The canvas tends to hold moisture (...and as a Knight of the Rotund I tend to sweat when I fight). Wet canvas smells only slightly better than wet dog. The scales themselves are 12oz-ish and were dipped in melted parrafin for about a minute each. By the way, my Scale armour is just a larger version of the aventail with the scales mounted to 6 oz leather.

[This message has been edited by knyaz (edited 09-21-2001).]

Sevrin le Merle · Post by **Sevrin le Merle** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 3:52 pm

I'm not stressed about authenticity, but what period would you say that came from? It probably looks really cool, that's for sure. I'm doing a sort of 14th century thing. I don't suppose much leather survived from that period, though.

knyaz · Post by **knyaz** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 4:02 pm

Sorry, but my gear definatly has a 12th -13th century Byzantine feel. The refrences I've used are all Eastern European. Scale armor was also used in southern Italy and Spain, as was highly decorated hardened leather. If you are lokking for a more "Frankish" look you probably want to go to metal plates UNDER a soft suede aventail. Or, you could opt for an earlier rig, but I geuss thats a whole new can of worms...just for the sake of an aventail.

Sevrin le Merle · Post by **Sevrin le Merle** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 4:18 pm

I think I'll hold out for a while and make a maille one. Thanks for the tips, though. My rig is legal at the moment, so there's no rush for a camail.

Gethin · Post by **Gethin** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 4:23 pm

Severin,
As I recall, there is some evidence of scale avantails used in the second quater of the 14th century. I recall a brass from Germany that depicted a bascinet with scale (I think that it is dated circa 1340).
I do not have the book handy that has that image, but I can look it up.
I would guess that a scale aventail would be appropriate before 1375 in Europe, but I have no conclusive proof for that statement.
Also, I think that such an aventail saw more use east of France. In other words, the images I have seen have been from Germany.
Best of luck.

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All the best,
Rhys
"Art calls for complete mastery of techniques, developed by reflection within the soul"
Sifu Jun Fan Lee

Sevrin le Merle · Post by **Sevrin le Merle** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 4:28 pm

It sounds like there's no reason why a French member of once of the mercenary companies that ravaged Europe in the latter half of the 14th century couldn't have a scale aventail, then.

Okay, so I'm looking at a piece of 4 oz leather. How many square feet, I wonder. Also, I'll need a sheet of sole leather for the scales. Hopefully, I'll be able to find these items in the seconds bin.

Lodhur · Post by **Lodhur** » Sun Sep 23, 2001 4:55 pm

OK, so lets open that can o' worms.

How about a 7th century goth? Scale camail? I know there's physical evidence for 7th, 8th, & 9th century MAILLE aventails. There is pictorial evidence (bracteates, plaques) for aventail that do not appear to be maille. If they are scale, I've seen no indication. Some of them seem to be horizontal splints or bands. I know there are examples of helms with vertical splints in back, as well.

I am building a scale camail which will hang off the occulars, as a drape to cover the bargrill & solid back. I wonder if I should make the scales longer, or horizontal? I specifically do not want to hold out for maille, due to the issues people report on the links being anvilled over the barwork.

I'm starting this project like, tomorrow, so anything you can offer is great.

Cunian · Post by **Cunian** » Sun Sep 23, 2001 7:49 pm

A local leather shop gave me a bunch of belt ends free when I was making a scale skirt. Since most belts weren't made the maximum size, they had a lot of 8" or less ends that were already cut vertically, so I just had to lop them to shape horizontally. They were a bit lighter, (8oz), and smaller, (1" x 1.5"), than you were thinking of, but the price was right and they have done me a lot of good service.

Lodhur · Post by **Lodhur** » Sun Sep 23, 2001 11:57 pm

OK, so I've decided (since no-one else has an opinion) to make the camail of successively longer scales, (starting at under 2") until they resemble pteruges below the chin. The point is to retain some breathability of the bargrill, & hopefully enable me to reduce or dispose of my gorget. I'll let you know how it comes out.