CA Crossbows

Ron Broberg · Post by **Ron Broberg** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:56 pm

Would the SCA CA battlefield feel different if crossbows were banned? Are crossbows more accurate? Is their rate of fire higher?

Hubert · Post by **Hubert** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:35 pm

Ron Broberg wrote:Would the SCA CA battlefield feel different if crossbows were banned? Are crossbows more accurate? Is their rate of fire higher?

crossbows are far more accurate than CA longbows in untrained hands, their rate of fire is usually less than that of a longbow, although far higher than their historical counterparts would allow. The gain in accuracy though from the archers I've talked to is a result of the additions of APD's more than anything.

That combined with (for thin shafts at least I've never seen golf tubes off the bow, or been shot by one) the incredibly low spining of the fiberglass arrows leads to a great loss in accuracy off of a bow, that usually can only be countered by significant experience and practice. It isn't rare to see longbow misfires due to the APD or spine. All arrows for lack of a better word flex to a degree when shot, the stiffer the spine of the arrow the less flex less. Improperly spined arrows will tend to drift, or go offshot fairly easily and need to be compensated for. Given the tools in CA, improperly spined arrows (specifically underspined) arrows are pretty much a given. Note that this isn't a safety issue, it's a matter of accuracy.

Crossbows don't have those problems, with the much shorter length of a quarrel shaft, and the launching mechanism of a crossbow, spining isn't a big issue. I've also heard from a number of archers that the APDs don't hurt crossbow accuracy. Thus crossbows are generally speaking in equally trained (or untrained) hands more accurate. Of course an untrained crossbowman will get destroyed by a longbow user who knows his equipment and practices with it.

At least that's the impression I've gotten from the archers I know.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:42 am

The reason why I was going to switch from "longbow" to crossbow was because I assumed that siloflex missiles would be the safest, and least likely to get banned by future rule changes.

Siloflex and/or golf tubes just don't make good arrows, even when lobbed by the 50# longbows. They look and fly ridiculous. When lobbed over the heads of troops, it's not unusal to see fighters reach up and nock them out of the air.

Crossbows, however, and launch siloflex bolts with authority. The 1000 inch-pound crossbow I bought from Hightower Crossbows was amazing. It was quick and powerful. You wouldn't find anyone swatting those missiles out of the air.

Unfortunately, Meridies just decreased the poundages for crossbows to, I believe, 800 inch-pounds maximum.

The thing with siloflex is you are going to want the strongest bow legally allowable in order to make such a bulky missle fly and strike as well as possible. This means you may well fall victim to the next rule change made on a whim that bows are too strong, as I did.

I think crossbows are the only viable way to use non-thin-shafted missles, like siloflex. Since this is the most desireable style of missle from a safety point of view (no part of it can pass through an eye slot), it would be a shame to get rid of the only effective launcher for this style of missle.

Anyway I still advise all who will listen not to invest money in combat archery equipment. The rules are too unstable. Buying conservative equipment puts you at a disadvantage, and buying cutting edge equipment puts you at risk of it being considered too good and getting banned.

Steve

lucius · Post by **lucius** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:32 pm

I dont know about the SCA in general but I would be extreamly dissapointed if crossbows were banned. If they were banned I dont think I would continue fighting CA. As for speed I can shoot 9-10 a minute with my crossbow while still aiming at a target. As for accuracy it all dependes on the person using the crossbow. Our group is the only so far that has subbmitied scores(that are posted) for the IKCAC and the 7 of us all vary from 298 points to 54 points. We all use they same types of crossbows and bolts so no one is at a dissadvantage or advantage.
Just my 2 cents

YIS Lucius

Lulach · Post by **Lulach** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:11 pm

Our group has seen the difference with CA as well. We used to use longbows. The arrows did fly VERY slow. We were lucky enough to stumple on plans that can make a very inexpensive crossbow. The bolts travel much faster, and much farther. We are all very happy with the improvement. I.E. we LOVE crossbows!

Lulach · Post by **Lulach** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:13 pm

Our group has seen the difference with CA as well. We used to use longbows. The arrows did fly VERY slow. We were lucky enough to stumble on plans that can make a very inexpensive crossbow. The bolts travel much faster, and much farther. We are all very happy with the improvement. I.E. we LOVE crossbows! :lol:

DeCalmont · Post by **DeCalmont** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:11 pm

Banning crossbows would definitly change the CA field and not for the better. Crossbows are more accurate as described above and fairly easy for someone to get comfortable with and become effective with faster than with a longbow. Longbow archery in any form requires more practice and dedication to become proficient in. The main reason that I stick with longbow is that I can fire rapidly and on the run, not too many crossbowmen can say that. I never have to take my eyes of the field of battle as I can load instinctively due to lots of practice. Both longbow and crossbow have advantages and disadvantages, it just depends which ones you want to deal with.

Ron Broberg · Post by **Ron Broberg** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:47 pm

DeCalmont wrote:Banning crossbows would definitly change the CA field and not for the better. Crossbows are more accurate as described above and fairly easy for someone to get comfortable with and become effective with faster than with a longbow. Longbow archery in any form requires more practice and dedication to become proficient in.

You say that like it would be a bad thing.

Part of the problem with wide-spread acceptance of CA on the field (actually, I am not sure that it is a problem. The discontent with CA that is often voiced in these forums seems to be little repeated in the Outlands) is the high rate of fire and accuracy afforded by crossbows. Sure - crossbowmen like that a lot - the targets are less happy. I am suggesting that it need not be an all or nothing choice.

As to "practise and dedication to become proficient" ... isn't that the heart of any martial art?

I bring a CA longbow to the field occasionally, as a man of rank in feudal Japan would be expected to be familiar with archery - and a samurai of the Heian or Kamakura era would be expected to be proficient.

Iain (Bunny) Ruadh · Post by **Iain (Bunny) Ruadh** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:20 pm

Steve -SoFC- wrote:<snip>Crossbows, however, and launch siloflex bolts with authority. The 1000 inch-pound crossbow I bought from Hightower Crossbows was amazing. It was quick and powerful. You wouldn't find anyone swatting those missiles out of the air.

Unfortunately, Meridies just decreased the poundages for crossbows to, I believe, 800 inch-pounds maximum. <snip>

If you need to get some return on your Hightower, let me know I'm sure we can find a good home for it up here in Midrealm. 1000 in/#'s is still legal here and I don't believe Duke Palymar has any plans to change than anytime soon. If you are interested in selling it, let me know and what price you are looking for it and I'll put all the call up here to find you a buyer.

****Duhhh I just looked at your web site and saw it up there (along with your CA stuff. Let me know if the sale falls thru and I'll see if I can find ya someone!****

DeCalmont · Post by **DeCalmont** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:09 am

Don't misunderstand me, I like the dedication required by the longbow. It is in mastering it that I find a certain kind of joy. Some people are put off by the need for such practice requirements, I am not. I get tired of hearing the old beef that anyone can just pick up a bow and take out the white belts at will, as with anything else it takes practice and dedication. I welcome any fighter of any style, it all enhances our game in my mind.

ROC · Post by **ROC** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:24 pm

The long bow man in my war unit Trains at least three times a week.
He takes great pride in taking out cross bow men as they reload.And thanks to his efforts.We take very few losses to archery fire.
ROC

William Campion · Post by **William Campion** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 5:21 pm

DeCalmont wrote:Don't misunderstand me, I like the dedication required by the longbow. It is in mastering it that I find a certain kind of joy. Some people are put off by the need for such practice requirements, I am not. I get tired of hearing the old beef that anyone can just pick up a bow and take out the white belts at will, as with anything else it takes practice and dedication. I welcome any fighter of any style, it all enhances our game in my mind.

I have to agree here. A crossbow may be less difficult to use than a long bow, but that doesn't make it easy. Our company fields 4 or more crossbows (plus a few bowmen) at major wars. All our crossbowmen have at least 15 years of heavy combat experience and one was a member of the US Army pistol team. Our years of experience both on the field and in other venues tends to make us very effective with our weapons no matter what they are. We have recently gained a couple of new members to our ranks who are taking up CA as well. One has been a bow hunter for many years. These new guys aren't bad, but thier freshness to SCA melee combat shows. They are less accurate, slower in thier rates of fire and take more time to find targets and are more likely to try and hit tougher targets when thier is easier meat to be found.
On the subject of targets, I have to say that my companions and I rarely actually look to specifically take out "white belts" or specific personalities. We usually go for the easy kills first. That would be spears or poles out in front of thier own shieldwall. They often leave themselves wide open to attack from multiple angles and are usually so focused on what is right in front of them they never notice the archer untill after they've been hit. I do the same thing when I fight heavy. Go for the easy kills first then use your numbers to take down the tougher ones.

William Campion
Pentamere Free Company
Midrealm

Gauvin_the_Red · Post by **Gauvin_the_Red** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:52 am

I would hate to see Crossbows go away from the field for two reasons.

The most important one it that I have a bad left shoulder and cannot fire my bow anymore without hurting myself...Maybe after my surgery I will be able to pick it up again but until then I have been working on building a crossbow to play with.

The other reason is that for my persona the crossbow is a better fit then the longbow.

Gauvin

DeCalmont · Post by **DeCalmont** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 9:12 am

I can understand that. I just had my gall bladder removed and can't even contemplate pulling my bow right now. I'm trying to work out a PT schedule so I can be ready for upcoming events. Hopefully by the end of the year I will be back in form.

Hew · Post by **Hew** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:49 pm

Which is easier to load and fire effectively with a single arm - crossbow or longbow? (assuming similar draw weights)

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:37 pm

How would a one armed longbowman pull the string, with his teeth? :?:

lucius · Post by **lucius** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:22 pm

Ive seen people use a longbow with one hand by sitting down and using there feet to hold the bow and the one hand to draw the arrow with. It was extreamly slow and unaccurate. With a crossbow you can put a foot sturup(spelling) on and it makes it extreamly easy to load but fireing is still preatty hard is you lack the arm strenght to hold it upright with one hand.

Hew · Post by **Hew** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 7:38 pm

Alcyoneus wrote:How would a one armed longbowman pull the string, with his teeth?

A guy I know tells the story ("No s***, there I was...") of being in charge of a company of archers defending from the top of the wall in a castle battle (Somewhere in An Tir), and having his guys getting picked off by one of the attackers. He directed them to bracket the troublesome and agile attacker, and they finally succeded in getting one of his arms. They thought "Huzzah!"

. Then the one-armed guy laid on his back and fired with his feet (bow horizontal) and remaining arm, and nailed at least one other defender. :shock:

lucius said:

...and it makes it extreamly easy to load but fireing is still preatty hard is you lack the arm strenght to hold it upright with one hand.

What if the tiller was long enough to go under your arm? At least you wouldn't have to aim it like a pistol.

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