Need help

wbf · Post by **wbf** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:29 am

www.plantagenet.org.uk/Images/de%20charney4.jpg

i need to know how to make or where to buy this kind of neck protector..any help will be appreciated..I have already checked Forth Armoury and they dont do what i am looking for

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:37 am

I made stuff like this for a client before:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/haus1.jpg
http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/haus2.jpg
http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/haus3.jpg

These were based on the client's conjecture based on these images:
http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/haus_1445.jpg
http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/hauss_1432.jpg

I tend to agree with others, now, however, that the images provided by the client do not represent a simple collar of maille, but are rather the top portion of a fuller mantle, which is blocked from view by the obvious demarkation line of the breast armour/clothing. Anyway, I made what the client wanted.

The picture you posted looks like a very short mantle with a leather backing.

Steve

wbf · Post by **wbf** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:37 am

Right then after speaking to my mates,the guys from Plantagenet Society,they insist that this is all the neck protection they use..apparently it is a basic sort of gorget with a layer of chainmail threaded/sewn into the leather..In the Osprey books i have,this type of protector is called a "standard" but yet nobody seems to have any idea what i am talking about or if they do they arent posting..

I really appreciate all the help you are giving me Steve..If i was to commission one from you what would the cost be and the timetable to make it..Also would this type of protection be SCA legal ???I know i could just buy a metal gorget but if i am going to play like a knight i want it to be as "real" as possible..My mates from Plantagenet have been helping me out so far but,they dont always have time to listen to my petty questions..So i have to harass and pick the brains of the fellow board members..

sorry !!

wbf · Post by **wbf** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:14 am

wbf · Post by **wbf** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:08 am

WOW I have recieved so much help from this board....

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:15 am

Sarcasm will get you NOWHERE on this board.

Steve -SoFC- was kind enough to respond to you AND answer your question. It is a simple leather gorget with a small chainmaille "mantle" sewn onto the outside. From what I have read and or seen, that type of thing is NOT period. More than likely Steve is right in that in Illustrations the "gathered" chain on the neck is the top of a bishop's mantle or the gathered portion of coif laying on his neck.

YES, that type of gorget COULD be made to be SCA legal. you could make one in your living room.

There are a few reasons your thread may NOT be getting much on posts. One could be that Steve did a pretty good job answering your question. Another could be that your questions are vague. On this board you need to be as specific as possible. When the general topic of discussion can cover a time period of 1,000 years you need to provide as many details as possible so that those who know can fasilitate(sp?) a correct answer.

Being sarcastic about not getting as much FREE information on a vague question is NOT the way to go about garnering support here.

wbf · Post by **wbf** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:13 am

Oh right so it not a case of if your new to this hobby/sport..Come to this board and ask question that,to the best of your knowledge are correct and accurate..So that people will help you and been patient..But to instead just lurk around not ask the questions you would like to know that answers..It is a pity that someone has to use SARCASIM to recieve a reply.If you go back and read what i wrote in the reply to Steve,you will see i was asking him some questions.Also in that same post i THANKED him for taking the time to help me..

I really appreciate all the help you are giving me Steve..If i was to commission one from you what would the cost be and the timetable to make it..Also would this type of protection be SCA legal ???I know i could just buy a metal gorget but if i am going to play like a knight i want it to be as "real" as possible..My mates from Plantagenet have been helping me out so far but,they dont always have time to listen to my petty questions..So i have to harass and pick the brains of the fellow board members.. sorry g the time to read this post and all the help he had giving me..

mmm seems to me i was being quite reasonable..

Steve -SoFC- was kind enough to respond to you AND answer your question. It is a simple leather gorget with a small chainmaille "mantle" sewn onto the outside. From what I have read and or seen, that type of thing is NOT period.

so all the books i have read are wrong ???? Funny that...

Being sarcastic about not getting as much FREE information on a vague question is NOT the way to go about garnering support here.

FREE huh, so i spend my time and energy to post topic i think are important.To have someone get stroppy with me when i get tired of not getting help??Also how was this question vague ??

I need to know where to buy or make this kind of neck protector..

Right so if it possible to build one where do i find patterns?? has anyone does this sort of thing before?? Oh look those are the same question i posted in the orginal topic!!

So how does someone garner support here ??? buy blasting people who are tired of having there post ignored ?? WOW amazing that instead of furthering the armouring knowledge you have time to lecture me about my sarcasim

I used to come to this board about three or four years ago and this board was amazing..i always got good help and prompt answers..now i get vague and contradicting answers..

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:20 pm

ok, fine here goes:

I have looked at all the posts in which you have authored. All of them look to have been answered and many thoroghly. In one you were welcomed both onto this board and into the SCA many times, as well as being praised for buying authentic armour instead of going the cheap/quick route of plastic.

So, you statement of it being a "newbie" thing is a bit off don't you agree? I mean, if this was your first post on the board you might have a point but you have made quite a few posts since you have been here and all were addressed and kindly at that.

You say that "all the books I have read are wrong???? Funny that..."

Well if you have read books talking about this "standard" then site them. I would love to get some info on a leather and chainmail small gorget/camail that was period. Like I said, I have not seen or read anywhere that a simple leather gorget with a chainmail drape was period. Prove me wrong. PLEASE, it would make my own problem of having to use an SCA gorget easier to solve.

Yes the Information on this site is FREE. People are not charging you for thier answers. You are not charged a monthly fee for posting to this site. IT IS ALL FREE. People who offer information on this site have spent time researching it and offer it out of the goodness of their heart. There is not rule that says you MUST answer help questions or even READ them. So, you getting pissy because everyone didn't jump at the opportunity to help you seems alittle dramatic don't you?

It probably has something to do with the fact that your subject line states "Need Help" but there is no clarification. Many on this board have pet peeves about vague subject lines. So, if you want alot of people to read your post about needing help you need to clarify it so people know what its about. Like "Need help, finding or building an SCA gorget" I am sure you would get a lot of response using that subject line.

Your question was asked to Steve -SoFC- specifically. So who ever read it probably figured Steve (IF he read the follow up posts on this thread) would answer it.

once again to my knowledge there are no patterns for this type of gorget because to my knowledge IT IS NOT PERIOD. If you want to know how to make one ok

Make a simple "dog collar" style gorget (simply a collar of leather with padding and protection for the front throat and protection for the top few vertibra of your back)

Then make/buy/trade for a small chainmaille mantle (kingslance on ebay has a nice one for about $20)

Sew the chainmail to the top of the neck of your dog collar gorget and you have your leather backed chainmaille "Standard".

For the persona you are trying to portray I would wear a chainmail coif and hide a simple dog collar gorget under it for SCA combat.

You say your posts have been ignored. I don't see that as the case. Either way, you posting sarcastic remarks about how people aren't helping you sure won't get them to jump up and start.

Cormack · Post by **Cormack** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:50 pm

WoodenBullFrog has asked me to have a look on this site reguarding the issue of this "So called standard" because I myself use one in our events. Unfortunately I have no books to quote from as to the authenticity of the piece so you'll just have to take my word for it, these standards as it were appear to have been used throughout the 14th and 15th centuries and I myself know of four different armourers over here in the Uk that make them for these periods.

As for the sarcasm issue, I don't know how long InsaneIrish has been fighting for but i'm sure he will agree that this is all very difficult to get into and can be frustrating at times which is probably why Bullfrog got a bit pissy when he recived a lack of repsonse which of course he shouldn't of. But on the flip side saying " SARCASUM WILL GET YOU NOWHERE" dosen't help matters, i'm not taking sides I think you both need to chill alittle.

Cheers :wink:

]I)ongal · Post by **]I)ongal** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:35 pm

Which Osprey book(s)?

]I)ongal

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:50 pm

I dont take ANYONE's word for it.....

Show me...

Mike F · Post by **Mike F** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:56 pm

From my experience:

Standing maille collars are usually a very -very- tight weave and stand on their own. I still wouldn't wear one for fear of injury.

As an SCA gorget, I'd have to say no. Rigid protection over the throat and cervical vertebre. Also, fencing demands a rigid plate between the collarbones, but I'm unsure if that's for heavy as well. I'd do it.

If you put it over a very heavy leather backing, then you might get away with it, it's your head. Well, neck.

Now, that;s prettymuch it for the constructive bits of my post, but I have to defend my fellows here.

Cormack: Welcome to the Archive. May your stay improve from here.

Cormack wrote:Unfortunately I have no books to quote from as to the authenticity of the piece so you'll just have to take my word for it, these standards as it were appear to have been used throughout the 14th and 15th centuries and I myself know of four different armourers over here in the Uk that make them for these periods.

Unfortunately, I can't take your word for it. If you can find anything, an illumination, documentation, even an armoring house that does strictly historical stuff, then I'd study that and may agree with you. However, people selling it doesn't make it authentic. Maille bikini are popular, but that doesn't make them authentic. If you could find me a few of these places, I'd be happy to do your legwork for you and ask them for their sources.

Irish: You're coming on a little harsh. Understandably, but Bullfrog doesn't appear to be the sort who takes chastizement well.

Bullfrog: Be polite. We're not your personal researchers. What we do we do for two reasons.

1) We like helping people.
and
2) Someone else helped us.

I'd hate to think what would happen if either of those broke down. Unfortunately, more and more people nowadays have gotten into the habit of feeling like they're owed something. I give you credit, I've seen people complain that their posts weren't answered in an hour. However, you need to relax. Many of us are amateurs and love sharing our hobby. Some of us (Like Steve) are professionals. Steve took time out of his day to answer you and tell you what the next steps could be.

Shop rate usually runs $20-$30 per hour. Not only did you get this information for free, but it cost -him- time and money to tell you.

I know you thanked him, but he's not the only one, and we have long memories. Look up AlucardTheDruid to see what I mean.

Be polite and we'll help you with whatever you need. I've been quite dumb myself, you know.

Halvgrimr · Post by **Halvgrimr** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:05 pm

For what its worth I agree with InsaneIrish (and thats rare these days;)
At this point I probably wouldnt help if I knew how.

As for the "I am new and didnt know better" excuse

a) next time state that, we arent mind readers
b) not knowing any better isnt an excuse to be rude IMO
c) trashing all the board members (this place used to be sooooo cool and now it sucks) isnt a wise way to get help

Halvgrimr

Tom Knighton · Post by **Tom Knighton** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:34 pm

I have to back Sarnac up on this one. I take no one's word that something is period. I did for years, but then one day I found that I had been told wrong.

Nothing personal, but I might be willing to trust someone who I know until they can dig up the citation, but when someone expects me to believe them on their first post, I really can't. Trust is earned to a large degree. I trust that if you give me a citation, that it is accurate and you aren't making it up, but that's the extent of it.

woodenbullfrog,

I'm going to give you some advice here and now. I don't know you for squat, but I do know that threads like that won't win you any friends, and if people don't like you they won't answer your future questions, especially when the topic is so vague. If you have read so many books that back up the existance of these gorgets, then please cite them for us. This gives us some example of where the information came from. Just saying that you read it in a book doesn't help. I read books were elves exist, but that doesn't make it so. Information does change, so either you have information we don't or you have old information that is now known to be invalid.

Either way, attitude won't help you one bit. I know I'm not the first to say it, but that's just the facts. We are a pretty tight knit web community, but not so tight where new folks can't get thier information. I was new here once as well, and I found out how little I knew. It was great! However, I also didn't come in with sarcasm about how people here were mean to me. A simple, "oops! I'm new so I didn't realize that" does so much more than lip (even virtual lip).

Either chill out, or you'll find it harder to get ANY information no matter how clear you are.

Bran

Halvgrimr · Post by **Halvgrimr** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:13 pm

Nothing personal, but I might be willing to trust someone who I know until they can dig up the citation, but when someone expects me to believe them on their first post, I really can't. Trust is earned to a large degree. I trust that if you give me a citation, that it is accurate and you aren't making it up, but that's the extent of it.

---While I would agree with you to some point, when it comes to mail you can normally bet that SoFC is on the ball

Granted WBF probably didnt know that

H

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:33 pm

Actually "standard" is the correct name for the 15th century mail collar. There is a picture of one in A&AMK. Both a standard and a biscops mantle are pretty much the same thing. The big difference, like Steve posted, is that the standard is shorter because it was worn under a full suit of armour and could have been sewn to the arming doublet. The mantle on the other hand was worn mostly by foot soldiers and could be so long they would almost hang down to the elbow. Having a mantle that long under a full suit of armour would not help very much.

Tom Knighton · Post by **Tom Knighton** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:01 pm

Halvgrim wrote:

Nothing personal, but I might be willing to trust someone who I know until they can dig up the citation, but when someone expects me to believe them on their first post, I really can't. Trust is earned to a large degree. I trust that if you give me a citation, that it is accurate and you aren't making it up, but that's the extent of it.

---While I would agree with you to some point, when it comes to mail you can normally bet that SoFC is on the ball

Granted WBF probably didnt know that

H

Halvgrim,

Please bear in mind, I know Stephen personally having both resided in the Consortium of Southern Marches. I've talked maille with him many, many times. My comments were in no way directed toward him. He's answered any question I had with citations where applicable. (After all, you and I both know it's hard to find a cite that says something DIDN'T exist).

Bran

Halvgrimr · Post by **Halvgrimr** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:04 pm

Bran

I meant no ill toward you or your words, just trying to convey to WBF that when it comes to mail, SoFC is one of a handful of folks to listen to.

H

Tom Knighton · Post by **Tom Knighton** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:15 pm

Ahh ok gotcha! Soooooooooooooooooo THIS is what the same page looks like

Bran

wbf · Post by **wbf** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:55 am

First of all, i do not have any problem with admiting i am wrong..I was wrong to post a reply to Irish.. :oops:

It is just very aggrivating to ask questions and not recieve answers based of the fact you dont know very specific information..If i could find the answers to these question elsewhere then i wouldnt trouble you guys/girls for help.. All the information i have is from books i have read or people i have spoke too..Which is limited at best..

I dont view this board as a bunch of personal researchers..I just figured someone at sometime probably asked the same questions i have and yall happen to know the answers..Where else am i going to find answers??

The books i have read ,and you can laugh if you want to i am never gonna know,are the Osprey Books ,13th 14th English Mediveal Knight,
Battle of Crecy,and this 100 Years War..These books either have pictures of standards on people or have a description of them..I am not saying these books are 100 percent accurate but, i lot of people use them..

I shouldnt have posted the sarcastic remark i admit that..My mistake,I dont want to damage this board or cause any problems i was just angry and i blew up when i saw Irish's reply..My bad..I hope this doesnt damage my relationship to anyone on this board..I dont want to be ostrisized from recieving help just because i got pissed off and acted a fool...In no way was the post meant as a personal attack on you,Insane..Even if it read that way it wasnt..

If i am not welcome on these boards anymore then i will go..Again if i offended anybody i am very sorry..

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:07 am

I've been waiting for a week for someone to answer my topic on lances for the late 15th but i don't get sarcastic. It's not that you're not welcome on this board, we need more people into this thing but getting snotty doesn't help. Hope i helped all of you, even the older members.

Tom Knighton · Post by **Tom Knighton** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:15 am

woodenbullfrog,

First, you ARE welcome on the board. Anyone is! It takes a big man to apologize, and you have earned my respect for that.

I can't comment with any authority on most of the questions you had, but I do want to point out that Osprey books are often inaccurate (although the Japanese one's are pretty good from my understanding

). Just because a lot of people use them, that doesn't make them accurate. A lot of people think fairies exist as well (it's true :shock:

). I'm not familiar with those particular Osprey books off hand, so I can't comment as to the validity of them. If you can, get a copy of Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight by Edge and Paddock (is that right??

). It's a much better source than Osprey books, and you can pick up a copy off ebay from time to time for a good price.

It does have a picture of a maille standard, though it appears to be nothing but maille. I don't see evidence of leather reenforcing. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, the links are pretty small, giving it a tight weave that might be tight enough to help it stand on it's own. This makes it not usable for SCA combat in that form, but the leather reenforced version Irish described construction of is.

Bran

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:34 am

although the Japanese one's are pretty good from my understanding

I've heard that, too. Can't quite recall where....

Effingham

Tom Knighton · Post by **Tom Knighton** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:52 am

I remember you telling me that Effingham, but I'm not sure why. I thought the guy was a bit of a hack

Bran

Mike F · Post by **Mike F** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:04 pm

And he has this strange obsession with armor . . . Okay, it's only funny when you read it on the Amazon page.

Bullfrog, you did right. Check out http://www.bladeturner.com and look through their stuff. They have some leather and maille patterns, although I doubt any would help you too much . . .

I'd look at the steel gorget pattern on the archive here, maybe trim it a little, harden some thick leather and sew some maille on it. Don't really need a pattern for the maille, it's all in how many links you need.

I wouldn't trust a close-fitting gorget, but if you want one, check out the brigandine gorget, make just the top part of it and then lace maille over that. It may take explaining to marshalls that it had plates underneath, and, well, I wouldn't wear it, but that's the price you pay, eh?

Maybe do a full brigandine, then just hide it under cloth on the bottom?

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:46 pm

I remember you telling me that Effingham, but I'm not sure why. I thought the guy was a bit of a hack

Oh, definitely a hack. But a sweet, cute, cuddly hack.

Effinghack

Tom Knighton · Post by **Tom Knighton** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:32 pm

Effingham wrote:Oh, definitely a hack. But a sweet, cute, cuddly hack.

Effinghack

I'll have to take your word on that one. I don't WANT to know if you're cuddly or not

Bran

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:36 pm

I'll have to take your word on that one. I don't WANT to know if you're cuddly or not

I think we're all safer that way.

Effingcuddlydammit

Tom Knighton · Post by **Tom Knighton** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:04 pm

cool! So we agree that Anthony Bryant is a hack, and that I should take your word that you're cuddly. We probably agree on Kass' Goddesshoood (who DOESN'T agree with that one?).

Hell, I can't think of anything we don't agree one.

Tastes great?

Bran

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:04 pm

Arg. What a cockup this thread has become! Frog: Sorry I missed your post. Often as not, I miss threads. I try to keep up with the ones I have participated in, but sometimes I lose track of threads I have replied to, and I lost track of this one, so I missed your (and everyone elses') response.

I do not know the correct terminology for the garment that consists of a drape of maille for the neck and shoulders. I have heard this garment called a "standard", a "mantle", and a "bishop's mantle".

The name of the garment, however, is not as important as the physical characteristics of it. That being, they are usually made of a collar around the neck, often of denser weave, that then attaches to, or transitions into, a drape of varying length. Some are short, some are longer, but seldom do they extend much beyond the shoulders.

The garment is usually closed by a series of buckles, often down the center-back, but, if memory serves, I believe I have seen them buckle in front, also (though I believe this was an artificat I saw, not literature/artwork, and consequently if it was an artifact it is possible it has been displayed backwards. I do not recall anymore).

It seems plausible that the garment was backed with some kind of liner, so that the maille does not rub against the skin of the neck. In fact, I have heard discussion from some knowlegable folks that perhaps the lining of maille was in fact a common practice for all kinds of maille garments.

Back to this particular style of garment, I do not believe the artwork I have seen indicates that the garment should be a only a simple collar with maille, as my reconstruction shows. I believe that the garment should properly have a drape of some length on it also. As I said, I made what the client wanted.

As for cost, I forget what I charged, but I would estimate I would charge around $150-$200 for one today. As I said in my private message, however, I am not currently accepting custom commissions. The garment could certainly be made SCA legal, but this would be done by utilizing stiff leather that would be legal on its own without the maille. The maille would be basically decoration, though historicaly accurate and worthwhile decoration.

For SCA combat, essentially you are looking for a maille-covered gorget.

If you are really interested in nailing down the specifics about this style of maille garment you should check with Erik Schmid at http://www.erikdschmid.com, although the site appears down at the moment.

Steve

Petri · Post by **Petri** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:17 pm

What is this? Big men with the COOLEST profession or hobby - the armouring - pissing away on each others feet. Man! Apologize to each other at once and shake hands.

Or as the Finnish saying goes "Ãƒâ€žlÃƒÂ¤ mene vihaisena nukkumaan." Says it all. Now wouldn't you agree, guys?

Guys..?

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:24 pm

We probably agree on Kass' Goddesshoood (who DOESN'T agree with that one?).

Oh, Hell yeah. I've worshipped the ground she floats above for ever.

Effingham

Mike F · Post by **Mike F** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:37 pm

Am I the only one who doesn't know Kass?

Tom Knighton · Post by **Tom Knighton** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:57 pm

Mike,

Sounds like you are. You poor, poor soul. She's over at R&A mostly since she's a clothing Goddess, rather and a mere armour mortal such as we.

Bran