Cleaning Advice (Gwen I’d really appreciate your input)

[Asbjorn Johansen]

Let me first say that all the products involved in this question are wonderful, and it was my own foolishness, not any defect in the products that caused the problem. I wouldn't even mention specific brands but I figure more info can only help.

Marcele mad me a beautiful new jupon for Pennsic (review to follow), unfortunately the belt I wore with it bled quite a bit (Historic Enterprises 14th !5th century belt, it’s a nice piece, only time its ever bled, http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart ... l&p=58&c=8 ) and now I have an ever expanding black stain spreading from the middle of the garment. This is not a defect in the product, which is nice, but my own dumb fault. The belt is a leather good and I should have been more careful to be sure it was sealed.

The jupon is made with a heavy hemp fabric which I dyed a light, but bright yellow using Dharma Trading’s synthetic dye (PR-3 GOLDEN YELLOW). I washed the fabric in hot water to be sure the dye is fast before it was used in the jupon.

Gwen or any else at Historic Enterprises, before I go and wash my jupon, is there anything special or odd about the leather dye, so I don’t set the very stain I’m trying to remove.

Does anyone else have any advice about getting leather dye out of fabric?

Thanks everyone for saving me from my own foolishness.

[Black Swan Designs]

I'm really sorry to hear about that Asbjorn. Your jupon is a beautiful piece of work and while a stain won't impact the functionality it really does look bad.

I just asked Jeff about it and he had the same thought I did:

If the dye bled that badly, the belt was probably dyed with a water based dye. We suggest using a relatively aggressive spot cleaning spray such as Spray & Wash before washing in cold water in a regular cycle. Using a "color-brightening" detergent or one with "stain removers" may help. Once it comes out of the washer, assess the results before doing anything else. It may need another round of pretreatment and washing to remove the stain completely. If any stain remains DO NOT MACHINE DRY, as that will almost certainly set the stain. Another thing to try would be to use Rit or Dharma Colour Remover on the entire garment- you may have to redye it yellow, but at least the black would be gone! A last resort would be to take it to a dry cleaner and ask them to try to get the stain out.

Jeff suggests sealing your belt with clear shoe polish or a Febig's product called Leather Sealer with Atom Wax. if you'd like to send the belt back we'll be happy to do it for you at no charge. If anyone else has had a similar problem, please contact us and we'll seal your belt at no charge. Since seeing this post we're also checking over all the belts we have in stock and double sealing them to prevent further problems.

Gwen
Black Swan Designs

[Adrielle Kerrec]

Sadly we had the exact same problem. It was not too noticable as my husband's jupon is pri,arily black with white ermine on it. We had some success scrubbing the stain with stain remover. We resealed the belt a few time and that seemed to cease the dye bleeding.

[Asbjorn Johansen]

Gwen,

Thank you for your time and the advice. I plan to wash it this weekend when I have some time to devote to careful washing.

I can seal the leather myself, but I thank you for the offer. I don’t think my use of the belt for combat is really what I would call a “normal useâ€Â

[Charlotte J]

Ya, same thing happened to me at Pennsic last year with a new belt and a linen dress in the rain. I've tried the stain stick on it, but to no avail. By now, I've just relegated the gown to underdress status anyway (and it's got all of that visible machine work - AAAACK!)

I don't think I've had the belt in the rain since, but I'll try resealing it just in case.

[Muriel]

Ohhh - stains removal -

This is a specialty of my Mom!

My Mom (and I've done this too) - puts the following into a washing machine:

3/4 c - 1 cup of Clorax 2
3/4 c - 1 cup of Tide
3/4 c - 1 cup of Automatic Dishwashing Detergent - powder . . . Cascade/Generic - it doesn't matter - it needs to be a powder though

Fill your washing machine - with all these detergents
Let the item soak for at least 12 hours

Then wash the garment. This Should remove most if not all of the stain. You can do this more than once.

I once washed a pale green sweatshirt with some Red stuff - the sweatshirt came out Pink. I didn't notice until it was dried in the dryer. I took it to my Mom - and she got EVERY bit of the pink dye out of it - by using the above soln.

It CAN be harsh - and might even fade your jupon a little - but it's certainly worth a try.

regards,
Muriel

[Black Swan Designs]

Thanks for your understanding that everything has limitations, but it's still dissapointing when something fails.

I wondered if the staining was a reaction to sweat or to rain. Sweat is pretty acidic but acid rain is more so. A relatively recent phonomenon I've noticed is wools that no longer bleed in the wash but bleed after being soaked with rain - the 'acid rain phenomenon'. Not suprisingly this phenomenon seems to be more prevalent in urban areas with higher smog.

Good luck with the staining- if Muriel's mom has used her mix to good affect go ahead and try it but in general be careful about mixing too many chemicals for fear of creating toxic fumes.

Gwen

[Charlotte J]

Good luck with the staining- if Muriel's mom has used her mix to good affect go ahead and try it but in general be careful about mixing too many chemicals for fear of creating toxic fumes.

Gwen

Good point... my aunt called my mom once, and asked "I need to get a stain off of my floor, can I mix chlorine bleach and hydrogen peroxide to do it?"

My mother thought "hmm, hydro.... chloric...."

(though my chem geek ex says it doesn't quite work that way, but mixing can be BAD)

[Charlotte J]

3/4 c - 1 cup of Clorax 2
3/4 c - 1 cup of Tide
3/4 c - 1 cup of Automatic Dishwashing Detergent - powder . . . Cascade/Generic - it doesn't matter - it needs to be a powder though

Muriel,
I know you told me this the other day, but all three are the powder versions, right?

[Tailoress]

Hi As,

A thought occurred to me... if you end up putting the jupon through a machine cycle as many here suggest after doing stain treatment, make sure it's completely buttoned up. I'm just thinking the buttons have a better chance of not snagging and getting ripped off if they're secured (as well as can be, anyway) inside their buttonholes. Good luck!

-Tasha

[Muriel]

Hi Charlotte -

Yup - all powders.

BTW - my Mom didn't make this up - I'm not sure *where* she got this "recipe". (??? Hints from Heloise??? I don't know).

I'm pretty sure the mixing of these 3 won't cause any toxic fumes - but I could tell ya a story about my Grandma . . . her house was clean - but DEADLY.

Muriel

[Black Swan Designs]

Good point about the buttons- if you have a net "lingerie bag" it wouldn't be amiss to use it. Button up the garment, put it in the bag and zip it in. Being in the bag should protect the buttons from damage.

Gwen

[Gwyneth]

Ohhh - guys. DON'T use Spray'n'Wash unless you are absolutely sure it will work. I have had Spray'n'Wash SET STAINS made by various chemical agents. Spray'n'Wash is great on vegetable/animal stains (grass, blood, sweat, and various child excretions) but doesn't work on chemical stains (markers, crayons, paint, dyes). As a mom with two active children, I have learned this through hard experience.

Here's what I would try:

First, try a mild soap (Ivory or baby shampoo works great) with lukewarm water. Scrub with an old toothbrush. If you are hesitant about using the soap, just try water and scrubbing.

If that doesn't work, you might try washing it with one of the commercially available dye removers. Yes, it might remove your lovely yellow also, but should also work on the stain.

Lastly, if the stain persists and won't come out, you could always overdye your jupon the same black as the stain!

Be very careful when using any commercial stain removal product (as opposed to a dye removal product). If it is not made specifically for removing dye, it may set the very stain you are trying to remove.

Gwyneth

[Karl]

This exact situation happened to me with the same belt from Historic Enterprises. I was caught in the rain two Pennsics ago and the belt bled a dark bluish stain through my tunic and onto my white linen shirt.

Gwyneth's advice is key; I first tried to wash the shirt on my own with bleach, and in doing so I "set the stain" according to my dry cleaners. I'd definitely test a small area first or take it in for professional cleaning.

Today I wear an undyed pouch and belt against my re-enactment kit for this very reason.

I'd *love* to see the review on the jupon however, I really, really want one.

Good luck,
Karl

[Cet]

Hi Karl,

you'll find a review by Asbjorn with additions by meself here:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=34629

[Murdock]

My belt is brown is it just the black ones having this problem?

[Black Swan Designs]

I've not heard any complaints about the brown but given the problems with the black I think it would be a good idea to be careful. I extend the offer to seal the belts to anyone who purchased a belt of any colour from us at Pennsic. We're in the process of sealing all the belts here, so there won't be a problem with this in future.

Gwen

[Charlotte J]

I've not heard any complaints about the brown but given the problems with the black I think it would be a good idea to be careful.

FYI - mine was a brown belt that bled.
I wasn't too worried about it, as I never have had leather NOT bleed when stuck in a rainstorm.

-Charlotte

[Asbjorn Johansen]

This weekend I washed the armng cote, not the jupon. It goes under everything so the color doesn't matter. The arming coat had some leather dye on it as well. First I tried mild detergent -ivory. It took the sweat out, but didn't do a thing for the leather dye. I tried a small part with spray and wash and it made no difference.

I'm going to order:
Synthrapol
http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/eng/2127-AA.shtml

and

Discharge Paste Color Remover

http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/eng/1574-AA.shtml

and
Dharma's Dyehouse Color Remover

http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/eng/1535-AA.shtml

and hope that between them I can get the black out, and maybe have a channce of dyeing it back to pale yellow.

Anyone ever dye a thicker garment like this? I'm wonder how the dye will react at teh seams.

[FrauHirsch]

I've had good results with ZOUT removing ink stains and it does have some affect on leather dye stains. Unfortunately some of the leather dyes run badly with sweat. Its the acid.

I had a brown leather belt run on silk once when wine was spilled on it. The wine came out, but the leather dye left a yellow stain. Never could get it out properly. It was probably due to the acid in the wine.

If you remove all the dye and the stain is still there, you could try overdying it the same color as the stain.


Julie

[Dmitriy]

Will the methods you guys list here work on rust stains (set with sweat, not just water...)

-Dmitriy

[Christian H. Tobler]

Hi Gwen, Asbjorn & everyone,

I had the same problem with the HE brown belt about three years back, which bled onto my sage green Herjolfsnes gown from Gwen. The dry cleaners were able to completely remove the brown stains on the gown and two coats of SuperSheen on the belt stopped any future bleeding.

Gwen, I'd recommend you guys get those sealed (or differently dyed) in the future - it's such a nice product otherwise. The buckle and tip are superb!

All the best,

Christian

[Black Swan Designs]

I'd recommend you guys get those sealed (or differently dyed) in the future

Absolutely, for sure, I agree 1000% and couldn't possibly agree with you (and everyone else) more. As soon as I knew there was a problem, I dealt with it by having the rest of the belts inspected and sealed......and there's the frustrating part of this story.

I had the same problem...about three years back

same thing happened to me at Pennsic last year with a new belt

two Pennsics ago...the belt bled a dark bluish stain

So now I find out there's been a problem with this product for 3 years, and I don't know anything about it until now. Now, when I can't do a single thing about it, I find out that all the people who have bought belts are taking a chance of having their clothing ruined when -if I had only known when the first incident occured- I could have solved the problem with an afternoon's time and a few cans of Atom Wax sealer.

Please excuse me if this sounds pissy because really it's just abject frustration but if just -one- of you had emailed me about the problem WHEN IT OCCURRED I would have replaced the ruined clothing and the belt at no charge, sealed the rest of the belts and this thread never would have happened.

Now, all I can do is feel dreadful to the tips of my toes and profoundly embarrassed.



Gwen

[Jamie C]

Gwen,

I know it is frustrating for you, but I think everyone knew it was not your fault. Even a sealed belt can bleed given the right situation. I think your customers just have enough respect for you that they know you would never sell a product you didn't believe in and that some things are out of your control. I think the whole situation is a compliment to Black Swan Designs' reputation and your customer integrity. Just my opinion.

Jamie

[Asbjorn Johansen]

I don't think you need to feel bad. As customers there is a responsibility to give feedback both positive and negative, if we want a merchant to be able to best meet our needs. In most situations we with products through retailers who don’t make the goods and may be many steps removed from the producer (chain stores, grocery stores etc.) and therefore can only take limited steps to correct a problem and only have limited feedback mechanisms. We get inexpensive goods this way, but quality can suffer due to the disconnect in the feedback mechanism. Folks mostly just buy somewhere else rather then address the problem.

On the other hand in reenactment goods, the seller is often the producer, and in many cases is running a business as a hobby. This sometimes means that folks aren’t willing to bring up problems because they don’t want to be seen a confrontational. In a minority of cases this may be because the seller has a reputation for being very emotionally invested in their product, and may not respond to a possible problem well. This is certainly the minority, but it reinforces the no feedback problem for everyone else who would love to fix the problem.

My next paragraph is directed at folks thinking about getting into the reenactment goods market. I know a few folks who post to this board are considering getting into the reenactment goods market. I’m sure the folks at HE already know this stuff, and using them as example. I’m also making some educated guesses about HE’s structure. If I’m wrong I apologize.

HE is a small but growing business type in reenactment goods. I believe you produce some of your goods in house and in other cases resell products that meet your standards, but given the volume of clothing my guess is you do a lot of ordering on specification. “I need a 100 pairs of X made from this material in these dimensions.â€Â

[Asbjorn Johansen]

Hi Gwen, Asbjorn & everyone,

I had the same problem with the HE brown belt about three years back, which bled onto my sage green Herjolfsnes gown from Gwen. The dry cleaners were able to completely remove the brown stains on the gown and two coats of SuperSheen on the belt stopped any future bleeding.

Gwen, I'd recommend you guys get those sealed (or differently dyed) in the future - it's such a nice product otherwise. The buckle and tip are superb!

All the best,

Christian

Maybe I will try the dry cleaners instead. I hope the ones in my area are as good as yours.

Asbjorn

[Karl]

I whole-heartedly, 110% agree with Asbjorn. The belt is made in India or Mexico right? Just strangle your supplier. Amazon.com has feedback on items for this very reason too - it's not for the buyer, it's for them to make sure they're carrying the right stuff in inventory.

For the record my black HE elk boots have never bled on anything and that's even after I fell in a watery ditch with two Swedish girls this past Pennsic (seriously).

Anyway I hope that the stain comes out bro!

[Maeryk]

I may be off base here, but I'd avoid anythign with Chlorine in it and linen.. (assuming its a linen tunic.. you didnt mention). I seem to remember Chlorine eats holes in linen as a hobby.

Maeryk

[Maeryk]

For the record my black HE elk boots have never bled on anything and that's even after I fell in a watery ditch with two Swedish girls this past Pennsic (seriously).

Probably has more to do with the tanning process than anything else. Boot leather (especially Elk) is a completely different animal (no pun intended) than cow leather for belts or other thick things. The belts are _probably_ chrome tanned and then "dyed", and whoever is doing it is not buffing them right, or over-dying them. Its really not uncommon.

Veg-tans used for garment leathers (boots, etc) usually have a better colorfastness, at least in my experience, than the stiffer leathers. I suspect it has something to do with the process they use to soften the leather after the process setting the dyes better. Or, they are just oil dyed.. which I suspect is why some of them have a greasier feel.

maeryk

[Black Swan Designs]

Abjorn, you've given me some fantastic advice, and I can't thank you enough for taking the time to write that all out in such a clear and straightforward way.

Starting on Monday, we're instituting some additions to the way we do things.

1) We'll set up a feedback email address that will come right to my In box, and will be checked several times a day. "feedback@historicenterprises.com" will provide a direct line of communication for comments, suggestions, product reviews, complaints, etc..

2) All orders shipped will contain a customer comment card.

3) Starting Monday, all the comment cards and feedback emails will be put into a drawing. Once a month I'll pull a card or comment out at random and give the sender a prize (to be determined).

That all starts Monday, but there's something I can start today. Heeding your excellent advice to "make a big deal when someone gives you that great suggestion", I'd like to give you a $50 HE credit, to be used for anything in our catalog. Francena's written it up as a credit invoice, so use it whenever you like.

Thanks!!!!

Gwen

[Otto von Teich]

I've got a black one,but its never never bled. Only wore it in the rain once,and it was a light drizzle. Guess I better seal it before I have a future accident. Thanks for the heads up....Otto