Is a scale skirt used with a CoP period?

jgalak · Post by **jgalak** » Sun Oct 28, 2001 8:32 pm

Just what the subject says. All CoPs I've seen end just above the hips, and I want hip/butt/crotch protection. This would normally be covered my maille, but I don't want to go that route. I thought about lengthening the CoP (not a period practice, AFAIK), but I'm wondering if a separate scale skirt would be more appropriate.

Thanks,

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Yehuda ben Moshe
mka Juliean Galak

Pheylin Quinn · Post by **Pheylin Quinn** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 12:05 am

Chain hauberk underneath, yes. You could even go with a chain fauld to mimic the look. However, I do not think I have seen any pictures of a scale skirt in use.

My library us somewhat limited, however. Maybe someone else has seen it.

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Pheylin Quinn
Hammered Steel by Pheylin
Shire of Ravenslake, Midrealm

verminaard · Post by **verminaard** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 6:24 am

I have not seen any references to one, but the cop seemed to be an armour more affordable to the lower class of warrior. You know, the ones who are not going to have their likeness in brass after their death, or statues made of them. Others wearing a full breastplate from the same time period sometimes have a scale skirt, so it is possible. I am halfway through making one for my cop.

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"I'm not fast,
I'm Caffinated!"

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 12:48 pm

He He
Yehudah,
Sounds like regardless your protestations to fopishness,
you want to be an Easterner/Turk/Byzantine.

Listen to your inner Turk

(that was, incidentally an implicit Yes -- look at Russian images mid-13th cent onwards
...then there's that Polovetz baba from probably the 12th with something that may have been a CoP and Pteruges)

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Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

jgalak · Post by **jgalak** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 2:15 pm

Hmm. Now I have to decide between an easy fix that I'm sure is not period (extending the bottom plates to cover the hips), and a hard fix that may have been used in my desired (second half of 14C) time and place (probably Germany or Italy, certainly Western Europe), but there's no evidence.

Maille is not an option: I don't want to carry the weight of butted, can't afford riveted, and feel that it doesn't offer enough protection for SCA combat in any case.

There was a fair amount of east-west contact in period (the lamellar found in the Wisby dig is believed to be of eastern origin), so perhaps I can justify the scale shirt after all. OTOH, scale is a pain in the neck to make (even if I can het a friend to laser cut a few hundred scales, there's still all that riveting).

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Yehuda ben Moshe
mka Juliean Galak

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 2:18 pm

Well,
I have seen Western images with a scale skirt and a breastplate.
Maybe one could assume it is a done thing with a CoP as well ??

and you don't have to make tons of little scales, make larger ones.
...and you could lace/sew instead of riveting.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

jgalak · Post by **jgalak** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 2:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Norman:
Well,
I have seen Western images with a scale skirt and a breastplate.
Maybe one could assume it is a done thing with a CoP as well ??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where have you seen these???? I've been looking through my stuff but failed to find it. If you have documentation for with a 14C (or even early 15C) solid breastplate with scales, I'd call that close enough for my level of desired authenticity.

As to size scales, that would largely depend on what was actually used in the documentation. I was envisioning about 1.5" wide and about 2"-2.5" tall, but a larger one might make life much easier....

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Yehuda ben Moshe
mka Juliean Galak

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 2:39 pm

Sorry,
Citations tend not to stay in my head.

Look through art books on "Northern Renaisance"

I think the period is Exactly where you want it.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Edric · Post by **Edric** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 4:49 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by jgalak:
 Where have you seen these???? I've been looking through my stuff but failed to find it. If you have documentation for with a 14C (or even early 15C) solid breastplate with scales, I'd call that close enough for my level of desired authenticity.

As to size scales, that would largely depend on what was actually used in the documentation. I was envisioning about 1.5" wide and about 2"-2.5" tall, but a larger one might make life much easier....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here are some scanned images I have. They are uncopywrited and are illustrations a modern artist did from medieval illuminations. I am in the process of making one myself from the larger scales(2"X3").

http://www.edricsrose.com/scale1.htm

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--Edric de Aldebury--
edric@edricsrose.com
http://www.edricsrose.com

Flos est puellarum, quam diligio, et rosa rosarum, quam sepe video.
"My love is a flower among virgins, and a rose among roses"

jgalak · Post by **jgalak** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 10:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Edric:
illustrations a modern artist did from medieval illuminations.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you have any idea if the original manuscripts are available on the net? Or in a commonly available book? I'd rather rely on primary sources...

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Yehuda ben Moshe
mka Juliean Galak

Edric · Post by **Edric** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 10:45 pm

The name of the book I got them from is at the bottom of that page, it says in the book what illumination.... the illustration is from, but you would have to look that up yourself(good luck) let me know what illustrations you are interested in and I will look in the book and tell you what the source was.

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--Edric de Aldebury--
edric@edricsrose.com
http://www.edricsrose.com

Flos est puellarum, quam diligio, et rosa rosarum, quam sepe video.
"My love is a flower among virgins, and a rose among roses"

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Tue Oct 30, 2001 1:21 am

I also responded to your inquiry over at Arador. I have a copy in "The Illuminated Page", Janet Backhouse, U. of Toronto, 1998 from Honore Bonet's 'Larbre des Batailles' of circa 1400 showing a number of scale skirts in use with globose style breastplates. I can try to get you a scan if you'd like, but I don't think the overall "look" is anything close to a CoP from 1361.

muttman · Post by **muttman** » Tue Oct 30, 2001 7:54 am

Well,
I have seen Western images with a scale skirt and a breastplate.
Maybe one could assume it is a done thing with a CoP as well ??

I have a picture in an Osprey Man at Arms series book( I know, lots of folks don`t think to highly of the Osprey books. Take it for what its worth) that does show A knight in a breatplate with a scale skirt. The book is German Medieval Armies 1300-1500, and the pic is on plate E. It says the pic is based on the effigy of Hans Haberkorn in Mainz Cathedral.
Hope this helps
John

Ares · Post by **Ares** » Tue Oct 30, 2001 10:09 am

Norman is correct. I have also seen CoP with scale skirts...though none exist today that I know of we do have drawings from the period showing scale skirts with breast plates and what looks like CoP.

jgalak · Post by **jgalak** » Tue Oct 30, 2001 1:31 pm

Edric: Thanks, but I've actually found what I need now (Thanks Ernst!)

I'd still like to see an example with a CoP (even eastern would do), vut I'm leaning more and more toward doing a scale skirt, prrobably from 20ga SS. Or would this be more appropriately done in leather?

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Yehuda ben Moshe
mka Juliean Galak

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Tue Oct 30, 2001 1:47 pm

The source I cited, although mostly pen and ink, does show scale in a number of ways. One example shows rounded bottoms with a median ridge: presumably metal. Anther example is drawn with a clipped corner bottom; further, the edges of the scales are drawn with double lines indicating a thicker material: presumably leather or cuir boulli.

jgalak · Post by **jgalak** » Tue Oct 30, 2001 2:53 pm

Ernst: You mean a median ridge in each scale? Running vertically? That's fairly neat. Could you scan and email/post that one?

Thanks,

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Yehuda ben Moshe
mka Juliean Galak

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Wed Oct 31, 2001 1:54 am

I'll try to get a scan to you later this week. Clearly, posting images from copyrighted books can present some problems however.

Gregor von · Post by **Gregor von** » Fri Nov 02, 2001 1:34 pm

Hi Yehuda,
If you could bring a copy of this stuff to the next fighter practice I sure would like to see it. (for obvious reasons) I want to rework my scale skirt so it fits better with my globus.
But another option you could use would be to put all the extra protection you want into your gambison. I'm working on this as well. We'll compare notes later.

Gregor

jgalak · Post by **jgalak** » Fri Nov 02, 2001 1:54 pm

Greg: Unfortunately, I can't make this week's practice at Hanover's. I'll be at fencing practice next week though. If I have the stuff by then, I'll bring it.

After looking at all the options, I realized that my primary goal right now needs to be to get the armor done so that I can stop borrowing armor (there's only one body piece around here that fits me, and it's regularily borrowed by several fighters). Therefore, I decided to go with the simplest solution - lengthening the bottow row of plates to cover the hips.

I will have to defer a more period solution until my next version of the kit (which will probably be a 15C style brig or corrazzina).

Thanks for your help everyone.

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Yehuda ben Moshe
mka Juliean Galak

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Fri Nov 02, 2001 11:31 pm

I'm sending scans from Bonet tonight.
The first is full page, then the details of the scale skirts. I was surprised to find the "thick" scales with a double line at the edge also show median ridges!? The last scan has a mail skirt rather than scale, but since it shows the back buckles, I thought you might also find it interesting. If you are unable to view or open the images, let me know and I'll send hard copy if needed.

jgalak · Post by **jgalak** » Sun Nov 04, 2001 2:03 pm

Got them, thanks.

Gregor: I'll bring them to Adrianople, if you want.

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Yehuda ben Moshe
mka Juliean Galak

Gregor von · Post by **Gregor von** » Sun Nov 04, 2001 7:55 pm

Yes, I would appreciate that.

You missed the Kyrenia fighters kick some butt at Hanovers this weekend. Even though we had the advantage, I'll enjoy the winning part for once. (2 von Timms S&S & 1 Malias agaist Doug, Iam & Hanover all with great weaponds). Malias finally had something good to say about Kyrenia.
Then they started to teach me two sword. And yup........my ego is back in check.

Later