11th c. Varangian

Vortigern · Post by **Vortigern** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:58 pm

Hey everyone,

I'm beginning to work on an 11th c. Varangian (norse ass opposed to Rus) persona. I am, however, not the best researcher when have yet to put a foot on the path ahead of me. Could anyone suggest a good starting point? I'm planning to do heavy fighting kit, which from what I've read on Egfroth's pages gives me mainly the options of chain or lamellar, a conical helm.

I think that I'll need to do some reading on the general culture, etc, to get a feel for how they were precieved by the locals, how they intereacted in Byzantine society. Essentially the details of how to look, how I'd think about common subjects. How I can put myself into that role as best I can.

Thoughts? Suggestions? I'm all ears.

My thanks,
Vortigern

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:30 pm

Vortigern,

Firstly, welcome to the wonderful world of Varangia (is there such a word?).

For an overall view, I would suggest you read The Varangians of Byzantium by Sigfus Blo"ndal (translated and re-edited by Benedikt Benedikz) Cambridge University Press 1969. It is by far the most complete description of everything relating to the Varangians available from the historical record. One warning, though - it is a little too credulous in assigning Norse/Varangian involvement to incidents and campaigns which do not specifically mention them by name.

There are a lot of useful articles at a page hosted by Halvgrim, at http://web.missouri.edu/~tm104/Varangian.htm - some by me, many by others.

D. Sebastian · Post by **D. Sebastian** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:36 pm

Egfroth wrote:welcome to the wonderful world of Varangia

That sounds dirty!
:twisted:

Vortigern · Post by **Vortigern** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:13 am

heh heh.....he said Varangia....heh.heh

Thanks for the suggestion. I was concerned about Blondal (no accents I know) since I kept hearing that it should be taken with a large grain of salt.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:24 am

He's not bad - just a bit overenthusiastic about interpreting things to mean that Varangians were present. There's also doubt been cast on his theory of the "Guards within the City" and the "Provincial Guards".

But if you want to find EVERYTHING that seems to have been written about the Varangians, you could do a lot worse. But you're right. A pinch of salt is definitely needed.

Vortigern · Post by **Vortigern** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:32 am

Excellent. Thanks for the advice. Researching isn't my strongest suit, but I expect I'll get better at it with more practice. =)

Edwin · Post by **Edwin** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:56 am

Is this for SCA play?

I am still working on trying to adapt Byzantine armors for SCA use, and continue to find little ways to make it look better. The biggest issue I have with SCA stuff is that so often, the armor becomes too bulky, and that the overall appearance just isn't right.

For example: I have a pair of articulated knees from Illusion Armory that are great armor... the best I can do to hide them is a large pair of trousers. I just don't look like what I see in icons of military saints (Egfroth has a great collection of pictures of those on his website). I have been experimenting with making other types of armor, but have not gotten adequate results yet. Not giving up... it's just a challenge to really get the appearance right when one is dealing with SCA minimum armor requirements.

Change that... I could do it with minimum SCA armor... but I want a little better than minimum for safety's sake, which makes it more of a challenge.

One thing that's helping a lot for general appearance is using more linen though. I will be making a new kabadion next month using linen.

Vortigern · Post by **Vortigern** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:37 am

Yes, this is for playing in the SCA. I really should remember we're not the only game in town! =)

A kabadion is the equivalent of what most of us call a gambeson right?

If I'm not way out in left field here, is there a good spot to find a pattern of good pics of some? I was planning on making a long gambeson either with or without sleeves (I've been waffling), but I'm all confused about how to quilt it properly so that the padding stays where I put it (certain area's I would like a little extra cushion, ie. tops of my shoulders), but the pre-quilted stuff I see in stores never hold up. Hence I think I'll need to make one from scratch and quilt it myself.

I have some old knee's and elbows in the garage that I'm planning to cannibalize to make more easily hidden stuff. Once I have something I like I'll make flat patterns and see if I can't laser cut them and then dish some at home which are a bit more refined. I figure I have all winter to work on stuff so it outta be perfect and good looking once I'm done.

I think I want to avoid articulated joint armour since it tends to be harder to conceal. Instead I'm going to wear larger pads under my copps to cover the little extra bits that might not get the coerage I'm used to.

Is there a shield shape that was most prevalent for the Varangians in the mid-11th century? My gut is leaning towards something kite-shaped, but I'm onestly not sure. I can make any profile I want so that's not a problem.

Vortigern · Post by **Vortigern** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:16 pm

Ok....more questions....see what happens...I begin reading...then I wonder...then I can't find a definite answer to my question (i'm an engineering type...I like black and white answers when I can get them)...then I feel a need to pester people here for answers....

On this Varangian page I was reading:

(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisand ... #footnote6)

There is an image near the bottom fig. 6, item #3. It shows a lamellar plate with a dome pressed into it. It shows the date as being 950-1250. This seems to me like a broad range. Is this the norm for that kind of listing? Should I consider this a germain source of info?

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:26 am

Vortigern wrote:Yes, this is for playing in the SCA. I really should remember we're not the only game in town! =)

A kabadion is the equivalent of what most of us call a gambeson right?

Yes that's right. But could be worn instead of armour. The "gambeson" worn over armour was called an epilorikion.The pronunciation is kavadion - due to the changes in the Greek language. If you want to write the sound "B" in mediaeval and modern Greek, you spell it "MP" (true!).

If I'm not way out in left field here, is there a good spot to find a pattern of good pics of some? I was planning on making a long gambeson either with or without sleeves (I've been waffling), but I'm all confused about how to quilt it properly so that the padding stays where I put it (certain area's I would like a little extra cushion, ie. tops of my shoulders), but the pre-quilted stuff I see in stores never hold up. Hence I think I'll need to make one from scratch and quilt it myself.

The quilting should be diamond pattern, like the ones here

I have some old knee's and elbows in the garage that I'm planning to cannibalize to make more easily hidden stuff. Once I have something I like I'll make flat patterns and see if I can't laser cut them and then dish some at home which are a bit more refined. I figure I have all winter to work on stuff so it outta be perfect and good looking once I'm done.

I think I want to avoid articulated joint armour since it tends to be harder to conceal. Instead I'm going to wear larger pads under my copps to cover the little extra bits that might not get the coerage I'm used to.

Yes, the less evident the better. The best of the late C14 leg armour followed the shape of the leg very well, and would be the easiest to hide. The Byzantines wore hose, so it's rather hard to hide armour under them. However, there is a case for the Eastern Viking "floppy" trousers - which are shown on standing stones in Sweden, and which could hide the armour better. Even ordinary straight trousers (also worn by many Vikings, as far as we have been able to determine) will hide a lot.

Is there a shield shape that was most prevalent for the Varangians in the mid-11th century? My gut is leaning towards something kite-shaped, but I'm onestly not sure. I can make any profile I want so that's not a problem.

There are only two contemporary illustrations of the Varangian Guards - both from the "Madrid" Skylitzes Chronicle - and the artist may never have seen Varangians. However, for what it's worth, though most have round ones, one Varangian is shown with a kite shield - see http://users.bigpond.net.au/quarfwa/mik ... itzes1.htm

Also, the kite shield was quite common in Byzantium at the time, and in the late 11th century the English (who became well represented among the Varangian Guard) were using them, as shown in the Bayeux Tapestry.

Regarding the dating of the lamellar plate; it's a reflection of the uncertainty that archaeologists have to cope with. To put a date on something unknown, you generally have to take it from the things buried at the same level which you DO know dates for.

For example, a particular fashion in decoration might last for 50 years, and if you find an artefact with that style of decoration, the things buried at the same level are probably from within that 50 year period. But if you can't date anything that specifically - how fast do the styles of pots and pans change, for example? - then you have to make a best guess within a much larger time period.

And that's probably what you're stuck with. I'd say that was the case with this one.

Knut Forkbeard · Post by **Knut Forkbeard** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:58 pm

Egfroth, based on your reply, it seems as though the Norsemen continued the practice of not wearing armor on their lower arms or legs. Would this be a correct statement? The implication being that an SCA person attempting to portray an 11th century Varangian wouldn't be wearing, say, bazubands.

Vortigern · Post by **Vortigern** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:19 pm

I haven't seen any pic's (Skylitzes or otherwise so far) that show them wearing vambrace-type armour. In the sense of solid metal types.

I did see some pics (listed as 2 military saints) that showed armour with rerebraces that looked to be made of the same type of armour as the stuff on the torso. These pics were on Egfroth's Hidden Church page.

It wouldn't be hard to hide bazubands though. Closed-cell foam inside them, and a long-sleeved kabadion over them. If the elbow ends were kept fairly low-profile they might not show at all.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:56 pm

Knut, that's certainly what the information available suggests.

The sleeve armour (I suppose you could call it rerebraces) stops above the elbow.

Vortigern, I think the answer, if you want to do SCA combat, is to hide all the armour on lower limbs.

BTW, what are you planning to do for a helmet? See if you can avoid a bar-grill, or perhaps cover it with a mail curtain; unfortunately there are only two references to face coverings in Byzantine resources - one relates to a "visor" worn by Emperor Alexios I in 1081 (in the Alexiad - his biography written by his daughter; the other is a single picture of a mail curtain covering the face in the C14 "Greek Romance of Alexander" - out of hundreds of warriors with open face helmets. Not much to go on, is it?

BTW, to find out a bit more on-line about the place of the Varangians in Byzantine society, read this very informative article. For problems with Blo"ndal's book, see here. Another very good article on the function of the Varangians is "The Uses of The Varangian Guard" in the section "Who Were the Varangians" at http://web.missouri.edu/~tm104/Varangian.htm

And finally, for an idea of Constantinople itself, in which the Varangians lived and worked, see Byzantium 1200 - a fantastic site with digital reconstructions of many of the great buildings and monuments of the City. To work out where evrything was, see here. And for some photos of Istanbul in the present day, see http://www.geocities.com/egfrothos/Constantinople.html .

Vortigern · Post by **Vortigern** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:00 am

For a helm? I had planned to use a conical (slat backed for a bit of ventilation), with an aventail all around to cover most of the bar grill. I've always had mostly closed faced helms so far along and I desire to breath less helm-recycled air!! It seems to me that if I had a banded norman conical with an aventail I'd be ok. Or am I smoking something illegal here?

I'll have to check out those articles shortly...once the laser is running and I can get back to the unwork I do around the shop. =)

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:35 pm

Well, for an 11th century Scandinavian, you might have a bit too big an aventail/curtain, but honestly, I can't see any way of getting a look that is exactly right for the period you want to represent as well as being SCA legal, and it is a very minor change compared with the unutterable ghastliness of a visible bar-grill.

Giles made quite a successful helmet of this type (I think I like it better than he does!). I'll send you it off-list, unless he beats me to it.

added later. I can't find an email address for you. Can you send it to me off-list?

Hrolfr · Post by **Hrolfr** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:00 am

Vortigern wrote:Hey everyone,

I'm beginning to work on an 11th c. Varangian (norse ass opposed to Rus) persona.

My thanks,
Vortigern

Norse ass *snicker* Hey, I'm one! But seriously, after the magical year of 1066, there was (supposedly) an influx of Anglo-Saxons into this company (for lack of a better word).

HrÃƒÂ³lfr

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:54 am

Oh, the evidence certainly suggests it. See http://www.geocities.com/egfrothos/byza ... ction.html - but they by no means seem to have displaced the Norsemen - just augmented them.

Vortigern · Post by **Vortigern** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:11 am

I PM'd ya Egfroth.

Vortigern · Post by **Vortigern** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:13 am

I saw that a lot of anglo's (and presumably Norman's as well) signed up with the VG's, but it's sort of continuing a long standing joke from my genericelt days when my local viking baron and baroness (he was my quire brother before being knighted) threatened to catch me asleep somewhere and take pic of my with a spear across my chest and a horned viking helmet on my head. It still amuses me so I figured I'll meet em half-way and do it right. =)

Magnus Ulfgarsson · Post by **Magnus Ulfgarsson** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:46 pm

Thread resurrection.

Trying to see what my helm options are based on the same kind of idea.

11th Century Norse / Byzantine helms... digging around

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:20 am

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=46922

Man, that search function sure is useful.

-Donasian.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:21 am

In particular this bit -

As far as helmets go, a spangenhelm as you describe would be fine, or you could go for one of the Byzantine helmets at http://www.geocities.com/egfroth1/HbkHelmets.htm (note that this page has links showing how to make several of them). If you want to do a Rus, you could also go for a helmet in the "Great Polish" style, (also very common in Russia).

Magnus Ulfgarsson · Post by **Magnus Ulfgarsson** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:18 pm

Donasian wrote:http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=46922

Man, that search function sure is useful.

-Donasian.

I always use the search function, didn't find exactly what I was looking for this time.

It was also late so I might have been erroring.

11th c. Varangian

11th c. Varangian

Re: 11th c. Varangian