A bunch of gambeson questions - SCA

sulla · Post by **sulla** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:01 am

So here's a question. I am making a gambeson to wear beneath my 14ga butted galvy steel 1/8" ID maille hauberk. The Hauberk covers me from neck to just above the knees and the sleeves hang to just past my elbow. I will be fighting in this get-up for my Baroney (eventually I'm sure. Gotta' be certified first.)

Here is a pic of a basic tunic cutting pattern that I am planning on using to model for my gambeson:

My issues are with making this garment SCA fighting safe.

I have a coif and helm. I was thinking of not having a collar since I will have a coif or aventail hanging over my neck and shoulders in both front and back, but perhaps I should add a short collar just to be sure?

While trying to maintain a period look externally, with natural colored linen on the outside, would I be too off period to have exposed natural colored duck cloth as my exterior layer of the gambeson? I was wanting to stuff the gambeson with maybe 4 layers of cotton batting with leather or plastic reinforcements secured inside the top layer of linen over the kidneys and lower ribs, the lower back in a kind of "pocket" so that the pieces can be removed and inspected, repaired, or cleaned. How's that sound?

And for the arms... this is where I am having my most trouble. I am pretty good at leather working, but I've never done any waxed or hardened leather before, so I was thinking of hidden vambraces of plastic worn beneath the gambeson sleeve? But the elbow is what really concerns me. I cannot figure out how to conceal proper elbow protection beneath the gambeson. Any advice on that would be more than welcome!

I have a crap load of scrap duck cloth that I'd like to use just to save some $, but any suggestions on material other than linen for the exterior of the gambeson (I even entertained the thought of a modern cotton or something on the inside, cotton batting stuffing, an outer layer of the duck cloth with plastic or leather plates in pockets in strategic locations, covered over finally with a linen outer covering quilted right over the duck. I think this only because I have just enough Linen on hand to cover the outside of the gambeson. Overkill or unnecessary work comes to mind with this original idea...) I just am trying to avoid inappropriate looking protective wear to maintain my Norman 1066 persona with a gambeson worn directly beneath the armor and the tunic and hosen etc. underneath it all.

I will do all of the exterior or exposed seams of the gambeson by hand (interior by machine) and would like to wear it over my tunic and under my maille without it being blatantly inaccurate in other words.

-Andy B

sulla · Post by **sulla** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:02 am

And, after all that writing... I could be simple and make the gambeson of at least 1/4 thick padding and wear a vambrace on my arms, a simple elbow cop on my elbows, make pockets for the kidney, short ribs, and lower back leather/plastic protection, and just make a slightly oversized tunic to wear over it all - THEN don my maille hauberk, eh?

-Andy

MalcolmdeMoffat · Post by **MalcolmdeMoffat** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:07 am

Sulla,

i would put a collar on your gambeson.
but primarily i would make sure you are using natural fibers if you don't you will ismply roast in it. i have one Chivsports bought gambeson and it's 50/50 shelll absolutly wipes me out after about an hour. i just received a new gambeson and it's fill is 100 cotton and the shell is like wise. i only tire out when my old arse and knees give up :wink:

the cotton breathes and when you body is pumping out tens of BTUs of heat it needs a place to go and fast.

that's my Nickle

Vogeljager · Post by **Vogeljager** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:18 am

Sounds like a great project. Make sure you post some pics.

1. An aventail of certain weights is legal by itself. Wear a gorget anyway.

2. I wouldn't advise attaching the plates to the gambeson or putting them in pockets. they will be protective but you will probably see the outline of the rigid plates on the outside of the gambeson. I would suggest wearing a rigid harness of plates between your tunic and gambeson. (it will look ugly by itself but great when covered

)

3. get some snug fitting, wingless elbows and a vambrace. Most people wear plastic elbows when hidden, but steel ones are smaller and will be less noticible under the sleeve. Make sure you have little to no padding around the gambeson elbow to make up for the bulk you will be wearing underneath it.

4. your gambeson shell will have to be a compromise between looks and durability. I don't have much experience there

sulla · Post by **sulla** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:51 am

Thanks for all the helpful advice!
Firstly, I am most certainly using natural fibers all-round! I have 100% cotton batting, 100% linen and 100% cotton duck to work with (At least on-hand that I don't need to buy which is a major plus in my book.)

Based on the info I just gathered...
I will make my gambeson of the duck cloth, maybe the softer cotton for the interior.
I will make a stuffed colar on my gambeson.
I'll need to get a gorget and hide it.

Hmmm.. a set of plates worn between the tunic and the gambeson? Well... I already will be wearing about 30 lbs of maille over it all... I'd like to keep the weight down as much as I can... maybe just a kidney belt of sorts with high sides and lower back protection? To big of a lack of chest protection that way? I wonder.

I will most certainly take and post pics!
-Andy B.

sulla · Post by **sulla** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:54 am

Ah... or perhaps a simple slightly-padded vest of sorts worn between the tunic and a lighter padded gambeson with plastic plates strategically attached? Kind of like a simpler, smaller, Wisby CoP?

I don't wanna' compromise my persona any more than needed and I don't want to "over-layer" or "over-weight" myself in the process.

-Andy

sulla · Post by **sulla** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:08 am

I still can't get over the feeling that wearing any kind of further padded rigid plastic/metal plate covering UNDER the gambeson is a bad idea, other than say a modified kidney belt. Except maybe some rigid shoulder protection.

-Andy B

Vogeljager · Post by **Vogeljager** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:45 pm

You don't need to wear much under your mail and gambeson.
A wide kidney belt and a 6x9 1/8" HDPE plate to cover your sternum and spine should do you fine.

What kind of mail are you wearing? 14 ga butted is bitch to fight in but it soaks up more force than the flattened 18ga rivitted.

Ah...sweet sweet rivited maille....now; where was I?

sulla · Post by **sulla** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:56 pm

Heh, I know it is heavy, but I had a huge roll of the 14 ga. Galvy wire and a 1/8" dowel... And my wife battles me on every purchase. So I went with what I had, besides, I need some things on the list for Christmas' and birthdays!

Eventually I'll get the riveted maille hauberk I always wanted...

Thanks for your reply. I need simple!

-Andy B.

deBlakstan · Post by **deBlakstan** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:48 pm

If you wish to stay with the 100% all natural materials just use armour grade leather plates in your gambeson pocket. Doesn't breath as well as the cotton but holds less heat than plastic of any type. You can always water harden it if you aren't comfortable with leather protecting your innards...

Cameron

igelkott · Post by **igelkott** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:30 am

sulla wrote:.... 14 ga. Galvy wire and a 1/8" dowel... .

uhhh, how is this possible? 1/8" = .125" and 14 ga SWG = .08" so you couldn't even get 2 links to fit inside another link, let alone 4. Even if it was AWG then the wire would be .064" and you still couldn't fit 2 links into another...

just wondering....

Chris

sulla · Post by **sulla** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:33 am

Ooops... I mean 3/8"... *smacks forhead*
:oops:

Adriano · Post by **Adriano** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:14 am

I was wondering about that 1/8" too! So if it's 3/8", you've got yer standard SCA butted mail. My gambeson doesn't have any rigid elements, just batting; I find that wearing a broad kidney belt over the hauberk provides good protection and also is good for taking some of the weight of the mail off the shoulders.

Will you be wearing a surcoat?

sulla · Post by **sulla** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:44 am

I am not sure what all I'll wear with my armor besides the Tunic, and whatnot. I am struggling with hidden protection for my elbows and forearms, and legs/knees that do not look too bulky and ridiculous under hosen and the gambeson... I am trying to pin down the minimalist protection while still maintaining SCA safety standards AND reducing the risk of personal injury. Less is best for apperance, but more is better for the ole' meat sack.

See my latest hopeful-thread http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=36500

-Andy B.