Black and white mystery.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:07 pm

I have a picture of a breastplate form a B&W suit with lots of litle holes in it, what are these holes for. some kind of liner maybe? the first picture.http://home.armourarchive.org/members/hayman/black_and_white_armourpage.htm

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:22 pm

Got no idea what the holes are for....

looks more like a backplate though.... Maybe I'm nuts.

St. George · Post by **St. George** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:26 pm

it's a backplate for sure.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:43 pm

Sorry folks, i meant backplate. not quite myself today. I just finished the pattern for the breastplate and i is going to look sweet when its finished.

Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:01 pm

Similar hole can be seen on the edges of armour throughout the latter half of the 16th and 17th century and were used to hold on rows of piccadillies (sp?).

Rows of fancy edging most often in a scalloped or rounded dag design.

I would surmise that these are for a similar purpose. However, later period armour is NOT my forte and I may be way off base here.

The set of larger holes seen at each shoulder were used for strapping.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:02 pm

aaaah, i kind of know what you mean but i can't say i've ever seen it on any armour. PIctures?

Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:06 pm

Panda wrote:aaaah, i kind of know what you mean but i can't say i've ever seen it on any armour. PIctures?

I do not have postable pictures. I do not like posting pictures that have been published. That is sort of a no-no... copyright laws and all. :wink:

I will look through my pictures of the Harding collection and others. If I have pics that I took I will post those later this evening.

However, I am a firm believer of pointing people towards research materials and letting them find what interests them.

There are numerous examples in Museo Poldi Pezzoli - Armeria I.

Just about any catalogue or book representing 16th-17th century armour would have a picture. Often times the fabric is gone and all you see is an otherwise meaningless row of rivets along the edges of the piece. Helms, pauldrons, breast/back plates, legs, gauntlets... just about every piece was dressed up from time to time. I do not believe I have ever seen greaves or sabatons with fringies, though.

Other sources readily available of armour that would have had silly fringy stuff around the edges...

Fliegel - Arms and Armour, Cleveland Museum of Art
Edge - Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight
Pyhrr and Godoy - Heroic Armor of the Italian Renaissance
Blair, Boccia, Fahy, Pyhrr, Nickel, etc - Studies in European Arms and Armour (p. 177)

And many, many, others.

*edited to add more sources.

Chuck Davis · Post by **Chuck Davis** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:23 pm

I believe that those holes may be for riviting in a lining. But I could be wrong.

-Cad

Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:39 pm

Chuck Davis wrote:I believe that those holes may be for riviting in a lining. But I could be wrong.

-Cad

I was thinking along those lines and was going to add that to my post. However, I cannot find reference to a lined black and white.

I was trying to find a picture of a black and white with a lining or the remnants of one for the past hour... but I can't find one.

Still searching. Were these commonly lined? Most of the black and whites that I have seen have not had holes along the edges indicating the prior existence of a lining, as the posted example does.

I have looked through my entire library with no success.

Chuck, do you have a source of documentation on linings of 16th century armour?

Here is an example of a lining that would have required similar holes... but it is not a black and white nor is it 16th century:

[img]http://www.grimmarmoury.com/albums/early17th/06704_b.jpg[/img]

BTW Chuck: I was up in St. Cloud a couple of weeks ago and tried to get hold of you to no avail. We had a little gathering at Erik's that went ended up being a nice quaint little get together. Hope all is well with your relocation!

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:56 pm

Do you have many photos of B&W backplates in your extensive collection. My collection of 50 or so pictures(B&W) is pretty poor to say i'm doing a repro of one.

Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 6:02 pm

Panda wrote:Do you have many photos of B&W backplates in your extensive collection. My collection of 50 or so pictures(B&W) is pretty poor to say i'm doing a repro of one.

Honestly, I don't know. I do not study 16th century armour for the most part. Most of my photographic efforts are focussed on 14/15th century.

I am not even sure where you would start.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 6:18 pm

I've scoured google and found not much i went to the RA to see the real thing but it is the only one in their collection. I believe will langdon of greymore made one but thats all i know.

Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 6:56 pm

OK... I would like to see good close ups of the backplate around the areas of the holes. I would also like to see interior shots.

For some reason, I am thinking Cad is correct.

However, I cannot find another black and white with similar holes.

This does not surprise me as I have limited pictures of them. If a definitive answer is not posted, I will do more research next weekend. This weekend is a bit crwoded.

I am growing curious myself. It is entirely possible that they were added at a later date and not at the time of creation, also.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:05 pm

I don't have any closeups of that particular one and can't remember where i obtained it. I also believe that the holes were a later addition but the two largerone must be for the strapwork or how else would it attach? I'm in no rush to do the Backplate as i haven't started on the front yet but wan to get my reproduction as close as possible. Brian, it would be great if you could look into it some more when you have the time, i just don't have the research material at this time. Hoping to build my library more when my workshop has stopped guzzling my spare change up.

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:24 pm

Brian W. Rainey wrote:It is entirely possible that they were added at a later date and not at the time of creation, also.

That would be my guess as well. Here is another B&W breast that has those same holes.

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/late16th/10902_G

Here is a B&W burgonet with the same treatment...

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/early16th/Burgonet16_13

And more...

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/early16th/Burgonet16_15
http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/early16th/Burgonet16_18
http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/early16th/Burgonet16_21
http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/early16th/Burgonet16_7

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:27 pm

Some kind of sewn on lining or simething similar. i'm even more curious than when i first posted.

Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:45 pm

Jason,

Thanks for the additional pics.

I am firmly in belief that they were used for lining. I am just not convinced that the holes on that breast and back are authentic to the pieces.

Handling the piece may provide the answer. Or identifying pictures of additional similar pieces that have a similar treatment.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:28 pm

Imperial Austriawould be a good book for you to aquire, Thomas.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:32 pm

seems like a good book and within budget.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:29 pm

Paired holes like those say laced in with points loud and clear.

We also need to ask if there are any other examples of such edge application of paired lacing holes at, say, the Churburg armoury or Museum Joanneum.

AB Hammer · Post by **AB Hammer** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:34 pm

Well good string, here would be a hint.
Any time you find holes in groops of two, it would recomend a place to be tied to, in hole and out hole.

Just a simple obsevation

AB Hammer

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:17 am

it is very probable that it was held on with points but weren't they going out of fashion by now in favour of buckles and straps?

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:13 am

There is also a possibility that these were used to attach a covering of some kind. Take a look at this picture here. It is of two tri-combed burgonets from the early 16th century. One of them still has it's attached hat. The hat is sewn to the helmet by using the pairs of holes between the combs. Notice though that they both have pairs of holes along the brim and edges of the helmets. These must have been used to attach a lining.

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/landsknecht/MI02352b09b

And this one here, although the pairs of holes are spaced farther apart.

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/landsknecht/Burgonet16_8

Here is another one. This one has it's holes filled with rivets. I have a feeling that this one is a 19th century copy and they filled the holes thinking that they needed to be finished in some way.

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/landsknecht/23526_G

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 6:37 am

That covering idea is good. it doens't make sense to make a liner that fits you then make it so you could remove it so easily with a sword blow. The quick removal of a cover however seems a little more like medieval thinking to me.