Clamshells vs Finger Gauntlets.

[Kyle Wiegers]

First off, I don't care about the SCA. I'm not SCA, not going to be SCA, and am not interested in their rules of safety. My armor I make is for fun and decoration, though I do want combat grade and weight.

Ok, now thats cleared up.

Which is a better guantlet to make? What are the pros and cons of these two types of hand protection?

1. Ease of production
2. Period of historical use
3. Effectiveness in protection (I still want armor, just not SCA armor)
4. Movement/dexterity
5. Any details I am not aware of

Kyle.

[Vogeljager]

If you only want decoration, I would say that the finger gauntlets with scales sewn to the tops of the fingers would be easiest to produce. No finger articultion to worry about.
They are cut but not crush resistant.

The only "other issue" I can think of is; In tightly fitting gauntlets, make sure the cuff is big enough to get your hand through.

Are you in the SCA?

[ToolGoon]

Here's a couple of questions for you. Are you looking at a specific period of region for your gauntlets? Looking at the fourteenth century (as I've been lately) you'll see hourglass gauntlets, with fingers. If you're looking at say 15th century gothic, you'll see mitten gauntlets and finger gauntlets, and combination mitten with end-fingers gauntlets.

Vogeljager is right about finger gauntlets not being good protection about blunt trauma. If you get hit with a hammer on a piece of metal resting on your fingers that force is then passed on to your fingers (lessened, but still painful). The shape of mitten gauntlets gives a good overall protection, especially if your lames are ridged/fluted. The shape of the larger piece of metal is what protects you (and the larger area protected by one piece of metal vs. many little pieces).

One thing you want to think about is how you'll be fighting. Are you wearing a full harness? Are you fighting with any historical training? If you're fighting in full harness, historically you would probably be fighting mostly half-sword, in which case you wouldn't have to worry so much about crushing blows to your hands. The most dangerous thing about a sword coming at you (when you're wearing full harness) is the point, the edge is really ineffective. That's it for my historical fighting schpiel.

As for ease of production? Not sure really, I'm making my first pair of fingered gauntlets and then I'll probably try my hand (no pun intended) at some mittens. I'd imagine that fingers, though time consuming, might be easier to produce, especially if you're using leather articulation and sewing it to a glove.

What are you fighting with that you want it "combat grade"? If it's rattan you'll probably want to follow the SCA guidlines for metal thickness, etc. But if it's with something lighter (padded swords, foils, I dunno) then you wouldn't need metal so heavy.

Well, that's my $.02

Ben

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He who lives by the sword, dies by the crossbow bolt...

[Prince Of Darkmoor]

Didn't you guys read his post? He's not in the SCA. Sheesh, some people

My vote is for finger gauntlets. They have a higher "Oooh" factor with a little splash of "Awwww" Mittens are nice and all that, but if you're going to make wallhangers, go for the finger gaunts! Plus, it looks really cool when you flip someone off, medieval style!

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Salinas Swordsman
Darkmoor Armoury
M.A.I.L. - All your Chainmaille questions answered here

[This message has been edited by Prince Of Darkmoor (edited 12-27-2001).]

[Ned Chaney]

What time period do you wish to portray? Mittens are not appropriate until fairly late in the 15th C. Finger gaunts are good for late 13th through 14th. Finger gaunts get my vote as well. They just really look cool!

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Emm aye sea kayee why. Emm ohyou essee.

[Halvgrimr]

Finger gaunts are good for late 13th through 14th.

since they were found at Visby, is it safe to say they are also good for the 12th C (im recalling this from old nearly dormant braincells but Visby was 1100ish right?) and maybe earlier? they were several examples and from what ive read most of the armor was old when it was burried (so maybe they were used even earlier than 12c?)

(this isnt honestly my area of so called expertise, so i may be way off)


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Hálvgrím Aðálraðarson

[This message has been edited by Halvgrim (edited 12-27-2001).]

[hjalmr]

I'll just add that Finger Gauntlets give a much better grip then mittens.

(^_^)

[marcidius]

Finger gaunts, especially if you aren't in the SCA, they look great, and (as mentioned before) you can flip someone off.... you can also give the two-fingered salute, and the devil horns with them. Just my 2p


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-Let cry the skies to cleanse my soul, let weep the heavens to make me whole.

[Ned Chaney]

Wisby was in 1364/65. Can't remember which. But it was 1360's that I know for sure.

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Emm aye sea kayee why. Emm ohyou essee.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Well, since you are in the SCA, intend to stay in the SCA, only care about passing SCA standards, and only intend on engaging in SCA combat, I would recommend Hockey Gloves.
-Vitus

[Chuck Davis]

Gauntlet development in Western Europe 1000AD-1500AD
[A short treaties by Chuck Davis, aka Cadwallon y' Rhudd. these are not written in stone, and if you have questions about my timeline, please write.]

I would suggest reading a few general books on the development of Arms and Armour. The easiest to find, and very good I might add, is Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight, by David Edge [curiator of the Wallace collection in London] and Miles Paddock [spelling may be off on his last name]

1000-1250
We have very little evidence for any armour, let alone gauntlets. In pictural references and manuscripts we see seperate maille mittens, maille mufflers [extensions] tadded o the arms of a shirt, leather [could be hardened, but who can tell] and nothing.

1250-1350
We start to see the developement of gauntlets made of multiple plates, scales, and some renditions with just rivet heads showing. They could be whale bone, iron, leather ect. Again we don't have any actual physical examples. Cuffs also seem to be added with plates. Solid cuffs appear around the middle of the 14th century. We also still see maille mitten and earlier styles in paintings and manuscripts.

1361 Battle of Wisby [pronounced visby]
Some mention here needs to made of the gauntlets found at the site of the Battle of Wisby 1361. Fought on the isle of Gottland in the Baltic sea. A professional army of 500 caught a militia of 3000 against the walls of the town of Wisby. The professionals routed the militia and the bodies of the dead laid in the sun for 3 days and had to be buried in mass graves very quickly. A great deal of our understanding of this time periods armour comes from this site. Parts of 25 Coats of Plates [some complete], many coifs of mail, and at least a dozen gauntlets were discovered at the turn of the last century. Most armour had been stripped off, but it is thought that the gauntlets and smaller items [including a bag of coins!] were mixed in with the dirt and buried by mistake.

The gauntlets are some of the most complete and beautiful of all the finds. Most are typified by small plates riveted both under and on top of a leather foundation, and then a leather glove [all leather has disintegrated] Cuffs with long, narrow plates attached to the metecarple plates [back of hand] with a small buckle at the wrist to close the cuff. Mention also needs to be made of one important find. A seperate bell cuff, made of 2 pieces and shaped like an hourglass gauntlet cuff were found. Very strange indeed. One gauntlet had over 350 silver rivets holding the plates to the leather glove. See here for some of the drawings from the Wisby books:
http://www.isd.net/cdavis/images/wisby_gauntlet_1.gif
http://www.isd.net/cdavis/images/wisby_gauntlet_2.gif
http://www.isd.net/cdavis/images/wisby_gauntlet_3a.jpg [this one shows the simple fingers]
http://www.isd.net/cdavis/images/wisby_gauntlet_3b.gif
http://www.isd.net/cdavis/images/wisby_gauntlet_4.jpg
for more pictures of armour see http://www.isd.net/cdavis/authentic.html

1350-1410
The development of the hourglass gauntlet starts around mid-century. They could be Italian or German in development. That is still an open debate. Characterised by a solid metacarple plate with sharply flaired cuff. See http://www.isd.net/cdavis/hourglass.html for examples. The fingers are protected by a variety of methods. Maille is used, as well as plates riveted in and under leather. Small scales seems to be very popular, as well as the advanced method found at Visby. These consist of a finger tip plate, a connecting plate, a knuckle gad, another connecting plate. The connecting plates can be 1 large plate, or several smaller plates. There also exists one fully articulated finger. It's picture is in the Visby book chapter on gauntlets. I will see if I can scan it. It is similar to the Visby fingers of 4 plates, each articulated to the other.

1410-1430
Armour development now diverges with the emergening Italian and German styles. The hourglass form of gauntlet still exists, but the molding of the knuckles starts to simplify, cuffs start to straighten and lengthen, the metacarple plate starts to lengthen over the fingers. But individual fingers still seem to be the norm.

1430-1475
Mitten construction appears. Mainly in the Italian armour style. Comprised of 2 plates articulated over the fingers, metacarple plate with articulated thumb or thumb with plates riveted to leather, and a long, slightly flaired cuff. At the centrury continues, the Italian mitten gauntlet remains basically the same, although the cuff gets longer and more pointed.

German gauntle development also advances beyond the hourglass, but in the spiky, fluted style of Northern Europe. Cuffs get longer or and pointed. Fingers can either be protected by articuled plates like the Italian mitten gauntlets, but individual finger defense, both articulated and riveted to leathers, still can be found. In some cases, the cuff is discarded, and the gauntlet is connected directly to the vanbrace of the arms which is pointed [tied] to the elbow cop.

1475-1500
Individual finger gauntlets seem to drop from favor. The Italian and German forms of armour start to merge again in the Maximillian style of armour. Cuffs are shorted and fluted, but have the round, blunt shape of the Italian form. Fingers are protected by articulated mitten defense, some of 2 plates, some of more.

I hope this little article has helped answer some of your questions about gauntlet development.
-Chuck Davis




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-Chuck
aka Cadwallon y' Rhudd

[Halvgrimr]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by edward atte flynt:
[B]Wisby was in 1364/65. Can't remember which. But it was 1360's that I know for sure.

Thanks Edward,

told you that braincell was nearly dormant



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Hálvgrím Aðálraðarson