Masters of SCA Combat?

[Willing Pell]

Has anyone purchased the book "Masters of SCA Combat" by Bellatrix? What are your thoughts on the book? Is it worth purchasing for a new fighter?

[Dmitriy]

Last I heard, it hasn't come out yet.

If you are looking for Duke Paul's manual, it's free for download at www.bellatrix.org (click on the "fighting school" link at the bottom of the page).

-Dmitriy

[paulb]

To clarify, the book was supposed to be about me. I am not writing it. It is being written by Brian Thornbird (SCA) - Brian Price (mundane).

Currently, it has not been completed, and I have not given my approval. I have no idea if or when it will come out.

It is not an instructional manual.

Paul of Bellatrix

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Give Brian time, guys. He is a very busy man. I am sure that this project will get back on track very soon.

[Mael Patraic]

Your Grace,
Sorry I haven't e-mailed you directly. A short bit about you did make the book about the SCA and other medievalists I interviewed you for at Pennsic (31 I think). There's just a little description about the start of your snap and the development of SCA fighting, with a little criticism from ARMA. There's not enough, though, that it would really detract from the "Masters" book.

- Mael Patraic mac Domnaill/Patrick O'Donnell
Author of The Knights Next Door: Everyday People Living Middle Ages Dreams
An inside look at the Current Middle Ages
http://www.knightsnextdoor.com

[St. George]

What kind of criticism from ARMA? Did someone from the SCA get to respond, or is it simply someone saying how unperiod our fighting style is without mentioning that it really is just a sport?

Alaric

PS- The Red Sox won the World Series.

[Mael Patraic]

Alaric,

The vast majority of the book is about the SCA. I give John Clements, ARMA's director, a few pages to critique SCA style and explain why he believes ARMA's is better. There is response by SCA people about the value of SCA fighting.

An ARMA guy just posted a review of the book on Amazon. He really focussed on the SCA/ARMA issue (Which is cool because it is his opinion/review after all). I just hope more SCA people give me feedback either here, on Amazon or any other forum.

The book also includes a chapter on three Brit reenactment groups that highlights how they differ from the SCA, with a response from Midrealm Duke Talymar who is also the North American head of Regia Anglorum. As someone with great experience with those two vastly different approaches, Talymar sees different value in each.

- Mael Patraic mac Domnaill/Patrick O'Donnell
Author of The Knights Next Door
http://www.knightsnextdoor.com

PS - I believe I met you briefly while researching my book. I attended Great Western War in 2001 (though I couldn't include it in the book). I shot a few pictures of how your armor was put together for Valharic and the guys who would later become his squires.

PSS - Yeah, my Sox won after the book was already past the point of no return in production. I'm soooooo broken up about that.

[St. George]

My concern with ARMA and others like them is that they look to what they do as a Western martial art, and although myself and many others feel that SCA fighting is a "martial art" it is much more of a "sport" than a "recreation."

I do believe that we met at GWW.

Alaric

[Mael Patraic]

I can understand your concerns with ARMA. Clements very much classified SCA fighting as a martial sport. I'd have to go back and look at my notes to see where exactly he and ARMA draw the line between "art" and "sport." But I do remember that ARMA's definition of "martial art" excludes several forms of what are normally considered Asian martial arts.

I would consider SCA fighting to be a martial art under the conventional definition of one. But ARMA has a more specific definition - maybe one that is more correct than what a misguided public believes - that excludes it.

-Mael Patraic mac Domnnaill/Patrick O'Donnell
Author of The Knights Next Door
http://www.knightsnextdoor.com

[Vivaine]

Hi your Grace!

Its me Vivaine. I hope you are donig well

Happy Holidays!!!

Vivaroonie

[Willing Pell]

I really don't understand why a book entitled" Masters of The SCA" would have anything in it about ARMA. SCA tournament combat is its own separate discipline. It's as different from Arma type Fighting as Kendo is from Iato. and the Whos better arguments shouldn't even enter into it. But in any event, Many booksellers are listing the book as available yet I get the impression from eveyone here that it is not, Whats the story?

[Mael Patraic]

Sorry about any confusion. The discussion of ARMA is NOT relating to the Masters of SCA Combat book, but another book about the SCA.

As the author of The Knights Next Door, I jumped in to this thread to mention that Duke Paul of Bellatrix is included in my book. ARMA is mentioned in the same chapter.

- Mael Patraic mac Domnaill
Author of The Knights Next Door: Everyday People Living Middle Ages Dreams
http://www.knightsnextdoor.com

[paulb]

Mael,

I didn't have any problem with being quoted in your book. I enjoyed it, overall.

I think that some of the criticism of your inclusion of the ARMA comments ,without a formal response from an SCA representative, has some validity, but you did try to be balanced.

I don't think you really meant to open that can of worms in your book.

Paul

[Sir Daniel]

The Knights Next Door, December 8, 2004
Reviewer: David Housteau (Louisiana) - See all my reviews

Let me begin by saying that I am a member of both the Society For Creative Anachronism (the SCA) and The Association For Renaissance Martial Arts (the ARMA). As a member of both, even if just cursory with the SCA, I feel I am in a good position to be a decent judge of how close the author's depiction of these two organizations comes to the reality I know.

Patrick O'Donnell certainly takes an interesting approach with the SCA by slowly getting into the depth of each subject by telling the personal stories of several of its more noteworthy members. This is done through the author's eyes as someone new to the "Society," as it is often called. In many places the book is a collection of individual stories that come together at different times to complete the circle of what he is trying to bring across. In doing that he places a very human face on the SCA, which is the most common theme throughout. I think that accurately captures the true flavor of the SCA, as it is a very strong socially knit organization.

The social aspects are presented in depth as he details the time and effort spent in the recreation of that most important fantasy persona-the role-playing at the heart of what the SCA is all about. Here he painstakingly goes through the trial and tribulations of players as they attempt linkage to the past, while bringing in romanticized escapism and dreams of their youth. The research explained is very heavily concentrated on the history and culture of a particular time and place. They try and find accuracy in their clothing, arts, crafts, and social interactions. Story after story of their search leans in a direction often relating more to a study of historic behavior, than to one of true historic mechanics.

The book takes the reader through the SCA world by describing personal stories of many of the better known and largest gatherings held. I have been to several of these, and I found his unique presentation of the sights, sounds and experiences totally and completely accurate. If the book commits any great sins, I see them on the side of omission, rather than commission. For instance, it completely ignores and never talks about any aspects of the Renaissance, favoring instead the Medieval era and all of the stories and individuals in the book have early period personas. So the only kind of fighting described is of the full armored heavy weapons type from the late Roman world to around 1300. There is no mention of the later civilian rapier simulation, my own whole and only reason for being associated with the SCA. As a result, a very large part of the SCA world was not even presented. Perhaps given the book's title this was intentional.

One other problem area that I was most interested in is the descriptions of the SCA fighting throughout the book. I found the author to be reasonably accurate in what he describes, but I sensed he didn't have enough of the proper background to do a complete job of it. As a consequence several important omissions and poor comparisons are made. For instance, the SCA fighting is presented as being quite realistic mostly due to being compared to another fantasy group, Dagorhir, that only uses foam covered padded weapons for touch-combat filled with magical spells and pretend powers. For someone who may only be able to relate realism through what has been seen on TV and in the movies, the SCA would indeed appear to be the "real" thing. As the author probably falls right in there with the rest of the mainstream population, it is hard to fault him just on that. Besides, he is just about to become more enlightened.

About two thirds of the way through the book some background history and foundational beginnings of the SCA are explored. It mentions the interests within the Society have shifted more away from the fantasy of its earlier days towards generally a more historic approach. However, there is an important noted exception. The book also states; "As the fighting developed, winning the day's tournament became more of a goal than strictly testing what people did centuries earlier." With this statement the author begins to introduce to the reader that all may not be as realistic as it first appears to be. He continues on and states that, "As a result, SCA fighting has several critics who deride it as `stickfighting' and scoff at how its rules tread a no mans land between reality and make-believe."

It is at this point in the book, just before a section titled "Keep the play version separate...", that first introduces the ARMA and John Clements as critics of the SCA method of fighting. He goes on to say that, "ARMA bases all of its fighting moves off of translated historic manuals as members try to recreate those to the letter, unlike SCA fighting which simply evolved."

At the beginning of this section Mr. Clements is quoted saying that, "My view is that the SCA has done as much to harm and retard the study of European martial arts as it has to promote research in the subject." While ARMA members understand clearly what this means and the reasons behind such a statement, it may seem quite hash to dedicated members of the SCA. Being a little impatient, I would have liked a follow up explanation at this point on how the SCA method often promotes the Hollywood version of the stereotypical and haphazard bludgeoning of opponents, rather than the more precise and refined methods we know to have been practiced. However, patience is rewarded as one reads on a little further down the page. This point is actually brought across in an inverse manner. By using quotes and paraphrases from the interview the author goes on to present a case for what ARMA does right, instead of what the SCA gets wrong.

"ARMA's goal, Clements says, is to recreate one-on-one medieval combat as accurately as possible using the extant texts as the starting point." While describing some of these early texts, the author further emphasizes this legitimate claim of historical accuracy by including the quote, "Here's how a guy in the 1300s says how he fought". Other important distinctions from the SCA are brought to light by explaining that ARMA is disconnected from all the pageantry, tournaments and competition that are so important in the SCA world. Mr. Clements is again quoted, "As soon as you start trying to score points, you turn it from a martial art to a martial sport." The author also adds that ARMA does see the SCA as a legitimate martial sport, but also emphasizes the point of John using the word "sport" and that "It's just not historical."

From here the book gets more specific on the problem areas of SCA fighting as seen by ARMA. One is that the use of sticks to replicate swords teaches one to club rather than to cut. The rounded off geometry eliminates the edges all together and hence the necessity of learning angles and true edge control, one of the primary considerations in a real fight. Then by disallowing strikes below the knees, fighters do not have to be concerned about a historically prime target area. As such their defense is freed from that zone which significantly removes many realistic tactics and decreases the distances between fighters. As a result they engage at a much closer distance than they would have historically, reducing the need to develop the correct movements and footwork. It is pointed out that fighting at a close range is not bad in itself, except for the fact the SCA does not allow many common close in tactics, such as grappling and "halfswording".

To round off those issues the author brings up the rule that if SCA fighters get hit in a leg, they can go down and keep fighting on their knees. The response from Mr. Clements is, "That's got to be the most absurd thing we've ever seen.... There's not a single account of anybody getting hit in the legs and then sitting down and fighting." He then brings this part to a conclusion by stating, "Get off your knees and allow people to hit your foot. That would change everything."

From here the book goes into more specific detail of why ARMA firmly believes that correct edge geometry, sword technique, grappling, period correct simulators and armor are so important to getting it right. It is mentioned that most SCA fighters can only imagine what real swords feel and handle like, while most ARMA members don't need to guess, they already know because it is a part of their standard training to know.

Nearing the end of the interview the author gives a post introduction to the ARMA by stating, "ARMA picked up steam under the name Historically Accurate Combat Association in the mid-1990s toward becoming recognized experts on true historical fighting." He includes that although Mr. Clements hopes ARMA can set the standards for other groups to follow, "coming up with a system easily accessible to the masses is probably hopeless." John continues a little further down, "I don't believe you can have a play version that is anything more than a play version... We should keep the play version separate and the real thing separate."

The interview ends in an attempt at balance by basically stating that many SCA fighters do see advantages and disadvantages to both schools of fighting. The plus side to the SCA method comes across pretty clearly, but I feel the positive attributes of the ARMA approach could have been explained better in his brief summation of it. I don't think he meant to short change the ARMA method, he just left out some relevant information that would have made a more valid comparison.

For example, he states that "Although ARMA members duel each other, they do not use full contact. Its fights establish no pecking order and though fighters battle "in earnest" - as Clements puts it - they never have anything on the line." [Actually, ARMA fighters do not "duel" we conduct sparring as one tool to improve our skill and ability-we spar to get good at historical techniques, not good at contests -Ed.]

Although I find the author's statement true and a positive attribute, the implication here and in other places throughout the book, is that the SCA is full contact sparring. This has not been my experience and although I do not fight `heavy' in the SCA, I have asked this question to those that do. Strong blows are indeed used, especially against shields and heavily armored opponents, but they are pulled in regard to sensitive target areas. By often omitting to mention that throughout the book, as well as specific rules for safety, limited targets and important distinctions between weapon simulators, he doesn't always offer a fair comparison in my opinion. Fortunately the previous pages are full of accurate information introduced by John Clements and well captured by the author.

It must be added that historically, students of any serious fighting art trained by engaging in mock combat as preparation for self-defense in real encounters, not pretend contests. And as many Asian martial arts do, ARMA fighting indeed trains constantly in full contact strikes and uses full contact in its sparring when it can be safely applied for non-lethal moves.

One area that the author presents in the advantage category for the SCA is the simple mass of humanity they can often field at any one time, sometimes numbering in the thousands. This is seen as a clear advantage in recreating actual battlefield tactics and massed close quarter combat (excluding horses and massed missile fire of course). So, what they may lack in accuracy on the individual level, they make up for with their practice of battlefield strategy and tactics, an area that ARMA does not pursue. It is also mentioned that the belief by some of historical accuracy can simply be seen in photos taken of them in mock combat and comparing them to historical artwork of combat. I could rephrase that to be similar to, if it walks something like a duck and talks like a duck... etc.

To summarize I find that taken as a whole, the book is incomplete at capturing the entirety of what the SCA is all about. However, as a slice of social life with specific focus on the groups highlighted, I find the book very accurate at capturing the SCA experience. To the author's credit, he adds balance by including alternate viewpoints and methodology from several other medieval re-enactment groups (not a part of this review) and one historical European martial arts organization, the ARMA.

As a member of the ARMA my primary interest and focus in this review was on how well the ARMA and the practices of the ARMA were presented in Director John Clements' interview. Although I was not present at that phone interview, by my familiarity with ARMA beliefs and practices and by knowing John personally I felt I could be a decent judge if his words and the views of the ARMA had been twisted, or misused. I can honestly say that I was impressed by the author's description of our methodology and in the context in which it and John's interview was presented. I found it refreshingly accurate with just a few minor quibbles, such as the constant misspelling of John's last name as Clement instead of Clements.

I thought some clear and important distinctions were made in the book, that I was hoping to see presented. What came through to me was simply that the SCA is a highly social organization about inclusion and having fun. Being completely historically accurate with the combat aspects is just not their primary motivator, where with the ARMA, as a historical fencing club, that is the sole concern and driver behind research and training. With one group one learns how to play a game with historical trappings, and the other, how to fight historically. Each to their own.

[Gwydion Caithnes]

Interesting review - not knowing ARMA, I don't have a basis for comparison, but it seemed a little "overly-defensive," given that the ARMA sections of the book were somewhat of a "detour," rather than a major focus of the book, which I personally enjoyed.

I also think it's rather presumptuous of him to write, "To summarize I find that taken as a whole, the book is incomplete at capturing the entirety of what the SCA is all about." That wasn't necessarily the purpose of the book, and such a book would probably be darned-near impossible to write, given the breadth of the SCA experience. The reviewer does redeem himself, however, when he says "to each his own."