SOLD:: Venetian Style Armour, Possibly Victorian Era

[shoehorn]

For sale: $4,000.00 USD All reasonable offers will be considered.

I do not know much about armour and the following is described by only what I was told it was. The armour is for sale "as is." I have described it as best as my knowledge will allow me. If you know more about this piece, please feel free to pass on any information.

This armour is believed to have been made during the Victorian Era (1837 to 1901) and we feel it might be older, most likely as a tourist point of interest for placement in the foyers and halls of noblemen that visited the area. It is not a recent reproduction, though it is a duplication of a Venetian suit that was made during the 16th century. The name Marco Barbarigo appears on the chest plate of the armour with a coat-of-arms that is two lions holding a shield with what looks to be six harps engraved. It is believed that the original suit was designed for Barbarigo, even though the original would have been made the century after he was Doge (Duke) of Venice (1485).


On the neck guard of the helmet is written:
Pax Evan
Tibi Gelis
Marce Meus


The full version is "pax tibi, Marce, evangelista meus," which was spoken by an angel on the delivery of Saint Mark's bones safely from Alexandria in the ninth century. There is a lion that holds an open book with this phrase on it, which is usual for many things associated with Venice, Italy.


What I believe to be the armourer's mark (armourer unknown) appears on each shoulder, the hip plates, on the thighs and on the shins. This engraving is another suit with an open helm surrounded by spears. Each of these marks is different and the design of the spears pointing away does not match any of the other marks. What I can only describe as "ivy" is etched throughout the entire front of the suit. It surrounds all the different emblems and marks on the piece and is used to accent down the arms, and legs. It is clear that no patterns or traces were used to do these "ivy" engravings, as they are not symmetrical.


The suit is in fantastic condition and is a museum quality piece. A wonderful patina has formed over different areas. Again this suit looks to be entirely handmade. Each item was hammered out, or at best, made with an English wheel. The edges of many of the plates, including the shoulders, chest, back, thigh guards, etc. were hand rolled. The engravings on the armour cover the chest plate, shoulder, arms, the front of the closed helm, thigh plates and legs. The rivets were hand made with a couple replaced by screws (which do not detract from the armour). The hinges that open and close for the forearm and calf are all handmade. The chest plate was made of one piece of metal by splitting the center and using an old style of welding to piece it back together. It is difficult to express the level of skill and expertise required by an armourer to create this masterpiece. It would be complicated to reproduce this suit in this manner and rather costly as well.


This is a true work of art and there are few metal smiths around today that would be able to accomplish such a task by hand. Pieces were added over the feet to allow the suit to sit properly on a mannequin but can easily be removed. The owner and custodian kept the armour in one of South Texas' premier men's clothing stores for the past 40 years, which was climate controlled.

Please contact me if you are interested. All payments must clear the bank before item is shipped. Shipping (and insurance) is to be paid by the buyer. I will ship worldwide. If you need a quote for shipping, let me know and I will try to get an approximate number.

I have included a couple of photos. I have several more that I can easily email out-"Ask and you shall receive."

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.

Thanks


[img]http://members.sparedollar.com/liquidatetexas/Picture-130(2).jpg[/img]

[Ziad]

I am sure you mean well, but really, this is the wrong place to try to sell such a masterpiece. We are but poor workday slobs, who can barely afford (for most of us, at least) a little bit better than plastic and spun-dome sport armor. I am sure that another board with museum curators and purchasers would be in a much better position than we are; and it would be a shame to take such workmanship out onto a sporting field where it could get damaged.

We abuse our armor, in general, so it would not be appropriate for someone here to purchase that piece which, as you say, is worthy of a museum. In no time at all it would be horribly dented and scratched - so please, put it somewhere that it can be looked after and conserved properly.

Have you tried eBay?

Ziad

[Thomas H]

not to be rude but posting out of the blue is a little un-nerving for archivers. many have been ripped off by people posing like theya re trying to do good and basicly, not.

[Sasha]

Museum Quality Piece

Ummm,,, those words, you keep using them. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.




Assuming you do mean well. That is a cheap spannish display suit from the 20th century. The helmet is the giveaway. they could never get the shapes right, which is sort of understandable, but for some reason they never could get the size and proportions right either. As a result you need to have lost an argument with a headshrinking witchdoctor before you qualify to get into something like the helm presented here (if the rest of your body was of a size to fit the body armnour).


If you bought this for more then about $400 as an "investment" or "opportunity" then I am sorry. You have been had.
If you got a hole of it for $50 in a garage sale and are trying to be the tacker and push it of as genuine whatever, well then you also have my sympathies....because you have so come to the wrong place!

Incidently, any collector of antiques like this is goping to want a fairly decent provenence and a certified inspection by at least one qualified specialist before paying this kind of money.

This is not a bad site to find such an expert for the assemsment (we have a few museum workers, a few master grade armourers and a few technical and test engineer types who could conduct the lab test.) I would like to think we did NOT have anyone gullible enough to fork out $8000 sight unseen on this suit....But unfortunately that would too optomistic of me. Before you get your hopes up though, the people that are that gullible and silly also lack the funds to make the purchase.


Sorry to be the newser of bad bears.

Sasha

[DAVID01]

I am so glad that we have people here that DO know the difference between Quality and Junk, But even I could tell that this was not Quality and I have only been interested in armour for about 3 years. I thought this looked like nicely crafted tin, it even looks like there is no articulation ANYWHERE. The arms look like they are put together like stove pipes, but now like I said I am by no means an expert, so if I am wrong feel free to kick my can all around .... I will hang my head and call it a well learned lesson.
David

[D. Sebastian]

I'll take 3!!!

[LordWulf]

Not being an expert either, but carefully reading what is written about something, the man does say it was possible made as something to put in the foyer as a tourist attraction......

Perhaps as an antique it has value, but as antique armour....... there's nothing there of value, not even for patterning.

Just my 2 pfennigs

[DAVID01]

There looks to be a square hole cut under the left arm, you can see the cut even extends at the bottom corner a little. This is one reason I think it may be very thin... like tin.

[D. Sebastian]

Yeah, but the pauldrons are tied on with shoelace, that rules!!

I gotta have it!

[LordWulf]

Thanks to the power of modern digital technology and software I was able to extrapolate the monofilawhosit by subjugation of the dislexic anti-repoused macros and clean up the image to show what it was made of.

If you look closely at the area in the red box you will see for yourself:

[img]http://www.by-battell.com/images/armour001.jpg[/img]

[Abaddon]

The sad thing is that if this suit is more than twenty years old, it is possible that someone really did pay a few grand for it...or more...even as chintzy as it seems to us.
I mean there is still a lot of hand-done work here.
And I think some of you people have forgotten what it was like trying to find armourers back in the old days before the internet. Not only has it become easier to find them, there are a lot more of them since the internet has made it possible to trade information and patterns back and forth. We see new armourers spring up almost every day around here! Not only that but the new information mediums have been a real boon to re-enactment groups as far as recruitment and popularity, and as they have grown so too has the demand for medieval reproductions, and so has the supply of same....consequently the price has come down and the overall skill level has gone up. You still see a lot of crap out there and always will, but just ten years ago I only knew the names of five armourers. Now I have a list of about three hundred. I can pick and choose what items I think are good and what I think are crap.
When this armour was likely bought, the buyer probably could not. The buyer probably had never met another armourer or even heard of one.
So the price was what the armourer said it was. And at the time it probably seemed a fair price, hell it might have been a fair price. But not now.
I think it is rather sad that someone, at some point in time, might have seriously overpaid for this item...and through no fault of their own and a technological boom that has ironically favored those employing primitive techniques to produce historical and low-tech items, the price of this armor has come way down since they purchased it.
Yeah...I can seriously see someone paying a couple grand for this back in the 80's. But not anymore. So go easy on this guy. He might be finding out for the first time here that his armour ain't worth nearly what he thought it was. I can think of few occurences with cars that I bought that...welll...turned out similarly...never a pleasant experience. And I don't think I would enjoy a whole peanut gallery poking fun at me at the precise moment I learned I had been had.

[DAVID01]

I don't think anyone is trying to be malicious, it is just that if you are going to sell something on ANY archive or an auction, you should do enough reserch on what you are selling so as not to misrepresent and take a chance of selling something to someone else who might have more money than knowledge. To ask $8,000.00 on an item then turn around and ask if anyone can give him any information is just doing things backwards. You can't blame people for taking a shot or two with as little laughter as this world brings today....gotta get it somewhere. BUT I do see what you are talking about. Maybe someone who knows a little more about this piece should PM him. Just a thought and if he is reading this, I apologize if I have hurt your feelings it wasn't my intention. Have a merry Christmas..... But you gotta admit that cola thing is DAMN FUNNY

David

[Ceddie]

how does the Coca-cola logo go past the arm?

[shoehorn]

I really do not have much of an idea what this was. I spoke to the Royal Armoury in Leeds and they helped out with my description. The suit was purchased around 1960 by a gentleman with a high-end men's clothing store. He had other such items as a Napoleonic dragoon set with the helmet and breast and back plates, along with another stand alone dragoon helmet. He also had a couple old conquistador helms, very nice stuff. Those went nice and quick, no problems there.

Again, this is a reproduction. We believe it to be have been made in the 1800's at some point. It was most likely designed for wealthier visiters of the area to purchase and take home as their souvenir.

The price might seem high, but I'm just doing my job as a consigner. Start high and bring the price down. I don't know much about armour and I have stated so and really don't know what the true value of this item is. I have no intention of ripping anyone off. If you want to make any offer, do so and I will consider it. I am not trying to do good or bad, just my job. The gentleman is about ready to retire and sell off the store and is just starting to clear everything out. If you would like to know more about me and what I do, feel free to visit www.liquidatetexas.com.

Oh, and the arm is not made from Coca-cola cans, they're Pepsi.

[LordWulf]

HERE HERE !!!!!!! Good Sport Shoehorn !!!!!

[Xanthier]

Oh, and the arm is not made from Coca-cola cans, they're Pepsi.

Thankfully shoehorn does know how to take a joke in good stride.
Who knows.. If he is a consigner maybe he might be able to bring some more stuff in that someone would be interested in.

[shoehorn]

Like I said, this one gentleman had quite a bit...maybe he's got more in the back room, who knows. Either way, if I get more armour related items in, I'll keep ya'll in mind.

[shoehorn]

If you can't tell, the feet aren't originals with the piece. They might have actually been made from a Coca-Cola can or maybe some tin roof sheeting. Who knows? I was told that they were added to help the suit stand better on the mannequin.

Which reminds me, anyone want a 45 year old mannequin?

[Mike F]

Shoehorn, I'm not sure what you'll get for that. It looks pretty if you're not an armorer or fan of historic armor. I don't want to chase you away, but perhaps you're better off looking at places where they want something armorlike for display.

That being said, I'll pay $100 for it and the mannequin, but I'm sure it's far too low of an offer. I know someone who could use it in a store as a display, but it's not that important.

Good luck, though. If he does have any other armor, feel free to post it, and we'll at least give you an idea of what we think it's worth.

And I honestly think you'd do better to sell it if you removed the sabatoons (shoes) and helmet. I realize the helmet goes with it, but it's a bit visually jarring.

[shoehorn]

Nah, you're not chasing me away. I prefer to know exactly what I'm dealing with, that's one of the reason why I'm here. I can't learn about new types of items if I don't get anyone else's input.

[Hew]

Again, this is a reproduction.

I'm not sure you could even call it that, since it doesn't appear to be a copy of real armour.

That being said, it doesn't mean that it's worthless as an antique of the Victorian Era (assuming that's when this set was made), during which many people liked the notion of a romantic past (Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood art, the Arts and Crafts Movement, etc.) before the Industrial Revolution, and chose to decorate their homes with articles that evoked those themes.

This armour would probably (at best) be considered "Victorian Kitsch", in the sense that it would have been kitschy back then. That may not be all that bad since, say, '50s kitsch can fetch high prices in the right market.

1. kitsch kich, n. trash: work in any of the arts that is pretentious and inferior or in bad taste. --adj. kitsch'y. --adv. kitsch'ly. [Ger] Definition from Chambers dictionary

2. kitsch kich noun. trash; art, literature, fashion, etc dismissed as being of merely popular taste or appeal, vulgar, sentimental or sometimes pretentious. Also adjective. kitsch'ily adverb. kitsch'y adjective. [German] Definition from Larousse plc.

3. kitsch In the arts, anything that claims to have an aesthetic purpose but is tawdry and tasteless. It usually applies to cheap sentimental works produced for the mass market, such as those found in souvenir shops and chain stores, but it is also used for any art that is considered in bad taste. Definition from Helicon Publishing Ltd.

4. kitsch Derived from the German verkitschen etwas, kitsch means to 'knock something off'. Today it is synonymous with objects of bad taste that are so bad they're good in an ironic way. In the fifties and sixties kitsch was - and still is - highly collectable. Kitsch can be anything from flying ducks to Tretchikoff paintings and Elvis toilet roll holders.

[shoehorn]

Thanks Hew, I'll make sure I use that in my next description.

[DAVID01]

Shoehorn, Just curious... How much for the mannequin ?

[shoehorn]

I'm not to sure...I've never really given it much thought and was joking earlier. I wouldn't mind selling it but I need to get the armour out first; its the most convenient way to store the armour until its out. Once that's done though, I'd be happy to move the mannequin, I'd hate to see the shipping costs on it though and it might not be worth it unless I can dissemble it and package it in smaller boxes.

If the armour does sell and you still want the mannequin, I'll even throw in the sweater (from the 60's also) for free.