"Realness" of raising. Psychological question.

[Mike F]

I just finished of a relatively rough pass on my first raised item. It's part of a pair of cops I'm making for my current harness. It's not very pretty, it was worked with red as the highest temperature but it appeared to work pretty well, as it's slightly smaller than the dished (and then "cold raised") cop, and it did seem to move (and mark up ) much easier.

But the strangest thing was when I picked it up, it just seemed more "real." I have a full (if disjoint) harness, and this is the first time I've picked up a piece and felt like that. Has anyone else had an experience like that?

I'm afraid I'll need to finish my forge or get an oxy-fuel rig, as my MAPP gas won't cut it much longer, and I think I've got a hot-raising bug now.

[RalphS]

and I think I've got a hot-raising bug now.

Welcome to the club!

About things feeling more "real", hmmm. It's much more in the look of it than the feel for me, and since hot raising gives so much more control (or rather, demands it), it forces you to treat the piece in a different way, and to be very sure of what you want the piece to look like.

I've mostly done helmets, and there is just no cheating there. If you're lazy making a helmet in 2 pieces (riveted or welded), it will turn out high and narrow. If you're lazy when raising, the helmet will turn out low or flat. But once you get to the right depth and width, it's hardly any extra work to get it in the right shape too.

Perhaps it's something like that which happened with your cop as well. I'm still waiting for a helm I make which feels that way.

[Dragos]

How about the stainless everybody asks for. Have you raised a helm out of stainless in one peace? I don't think stainless is lazy in two peaces, but can be a real pain to get into shape by hand hammering it.

Dragos

[Ugo]

Yep, I've noticed it, feels more alive. Sexy, huh!?

[Mike F]

Creepily enough, Ugo, yes, it does feel sexy.

I need to work both cops deeper, so that's gonna be a new day, but otherwise all is on-track.

Dragos, personally I agree that it's not really lazy to do it in two pieces (I did my helm like that) but it's also not correct for period use. Neither is stainless, mild, or, depending on period, medium carbon steel. I tend to let people so what they do, though. I'm slowly getting accustomed to purely historic armor, but I'd still prefer 1050 to pure iron, although it's debatable what's in use in the early 15th century.

I'm definately going to use dishes and the like, but I'm going to try to hot raise stuff a little more often.

And again, Ugo, that's creepy. I almost want to go feel my cop again. Seriously, it feels so alive, almost organic. And the color . . . It's not even a good piece, and I love it so . . .

Oh, Ugo, if you ever make it to Alaric's (and Gruber's) shop or a Midwest Armoring Guild or ARS event, give me a buzz. I'd love to learn stuff from you, or even just shoot the breeze.

[Thomas H]

Raising cops is the best, i am about halfway through one but need a smaller stake to get the depth. all done cold, complete bitch but nice results.

[Doug Confere]

I know exactly what you mean. A pair of couters was my first raising project....and it feels like real armour, soooo much better than welded or dished couters.

Doug

[RalphS]

Raising cops is the best, i am about halfway through one but need a smaller stake to get the depth. all done cold, complete bitch but nice results.

So that's what I did wrong! I started with cold raising a sallet (with separate visor and articulated tail). If your cold raised cop is a complete bitch, I'd rather not express myself about what the cold raised helmet is...

I swore there had to be a better way, and raised my next helmet hot. And found out like that, quite as expected, that there indeed is a better way!

Sofar I've started work on a total of 7 raised helmets, of which one was cold raised. Only really finished 2.5 of them sofar, with another one reaching completion, the rest being on hold. But sofar there is only one (actually one of those "collecting a patina") which gets close to feeling "real". But now I'm comparing to an extant 15th early 16th c rennhut I've handled, not to welded stuff.

More hot raising!!!

[Thomas H]

i've hot raised half of a bowl shape for practice. 18g and no cracks
I might try and squeeze a Chapel-de-fer out of it.

[Ugo]

Shooting breeze sounds good, I just sent a helmet their way for PJ. Alaric should get some pics of it up soon. The visor & chin are raised the bowl is welded.

I can't wait to make it out that way! We should have a raising party.

[Samuel]

Ive only limited exposure to raising...

I was inspired by Cads kettlehat to give it a go about 5 years ago and made a shop ashtray. well it was intended to be a helm... while it does seem much more the "thing" than working cold and dishing the amount of tools needed are usually far out of the area for most hobby armorers.

( a rosebud torch, acetylene and O2 dont seem much BUT having the plethora of stakes, hammers, and foremost SKILL.. does put it out of the hands of many..)

I tend to think this type of skill can be best aquired from someone who already has an extensive knowledge of it...

IE if this is something you wish to explore and get good at I highly recommend going to one of the top end armorers and learning first hand....

save yourself the frustration and save china the steel...

[kiyohara]

Isn't that just the coolest feeling. For me it seemed real because I started to really feel and understand the way the metal moves. I first felt that with a piece worked cold, but working it hot just lets you feel and play with it so much more. There is something to be said for the metal almost coming alive in your hands, and its showes in the finished product when you've worked it that way.

Im sure I can talk to gruber and we can set aside so time in the shop if you can make it over. It would be a blast.

See what you did now I cant wait to commune with some steel tomorrow.

----kiyohara

[Halberds]

So... you have witnessed the flow of the steel....and it feels right...

This is so hard to teach; however very rewarding when the newb says:
Hey it's working.... I see it.... I think I can do this...
And pounds out this in only 2 classes:

Now for the funny part:
Kyle pounded this 14 ga. mask cold....and it has not even gone to the first annealing yet.

Hal

[Mike F]

Hal: Now that's neat. Now I need to try that.

Kiyohara: I'm in Kenosha every Thursday night until about 9:00 and I have Fridays off, so if a number (or even one) of you is in the shop on Friday and you can find a place for me to crash, I can make a day of it.

Are you closer to Arlington Heights or O'Hare?

[Jacob]

Yes, it seems more real. It is more realistic. I agree that if you have the chance, learn from someone with experience. However, if that is not an option, do some research and go try it out.

The picture article on my site was my first raising project. I used something like 2 common hammers, a big round metal lump (not even a ball or proper mushroom), a small rivet forge, and some channel lock adjustable pliers with the teeth ground off. Grinding and polishing were done on a 6" disk sander on the back end of an old wood lathe.

Try it. It works.

Recently I forged a stake for raising pointed elbows. It's a large bolt with the head hammered into a point and then ground smooth. The first elbow is pretty good, but needs one more raising pass to be as pointed as the original. Then I'll be able to see how well I can articulate medieval-shaped elbows.

Jacob

[kiyohara]

Ill send you a pm and we can see if we can work out the details and of the two ohare is closer.
take care
--kiyohara