Turkish janissary soft kit

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:34 pm

Howdy! As requested, here's some pictures of my Janissary kit from Atlantian 12th Night. The downloadable picture is a line drawing by Gentile Bellini from the late 1500's when he was in Istanbul. This is (as far as I can tell) the only extant European drawing of a Janissary from SCA period. Generally speaking, scholars accept the drawing as fairly realistic, and it matches with paintings from the Ottoman empire of Turks. I chose to recreate this outfit as closely as possible. There are two main differences. One - the falling collar. Adding that next week. Two - bow & quiver. Don't own those.

*Constructive* criticism is more than welcome! Deconstructive criticizers will be beaten about the head & shoulders.

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:37 pm

You're fat like the guy in the line drawing. You should work on that.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:39 pm

Dear Sweet Char,

Ordinairly I'd beat you about the head & shoulders. But you're cute. So I'll beat Jeff instead.

Dear Editors -

A) please change charlotte's status to 'annoying but cute'.

B) please alter my post so that both pictures show up in the post? I'm stoopid.

Alejandro

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:45 pm

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:46 pm

Evil Baron Alejandro wrote:Dear Sweet Char,

Ordinairly I'd beat you about the head & shoulders. But you're cute. So I'll beat Jeff instead.

Dear Editors -

A) please change charlotte's status to 'annoying but cute'. B) please alter my post so that both pictures show up in the post? I'm stoopid.

Alejandro

Dear Evil Baron:

You can beat Jeff all you want. You just have to wait until I'm done. :twisted:

Dear Editors:

Please don't change my name to that. I'd be forced to stop flirting on the archive, for fear that it would be "annoying". Plus, some people would take it waaaaaay too seriously. :wink:

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:49 pm

Hate to say this, Your Excellency, but your outer coat (I'm sorry I do no9t know what it is called) looks too fitted. The coat in the drawing looks looser.

Other than that, very spiffy.

Mord.

PS. tupperware?

PPS. Not to worry, I'm beaten about the head and shoulders on a weekly basis...release the hounds.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:53 pm

Looks REALLY sweet!

That quiver looks like a rather elongated version of a magyar quiver I once made for someone.. Hmm.. need one made? *grin*

I would assume the bow is in a quiver as well.. but have no way to tell that.

Maeryk

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:56 pm

Sir Mord wrote:Hate to say this, Your Excellency, but your outer coat (I'm sorry I do no9t know what it is called) looks too fitted. The coat in the drawing looks looser.

Other than that, very spiffy.

Mord.

PS. tupperware?

PPS. Not to worry, I'm beaten about the head and shoulders on a weekly basis...release the hounds.

I saw this in person, it's really not that fitted. I think it's fine, but the fellow in the line drawing looks husky, so it could be hard to tell.

However, I was just looking at the length. It's hard to tell from the picture, but the skirt seems to cover more of his legs, and looks a little longer to me. Are there other garments from the same time and place that there would be indications of fashionable hem height?

It also looks to me like the hat would come to more of a sharp point and fold over. I think yours was rounded? Again, if you have other evidence on this hat, that might trump the line drawing.

Looks very nice though.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:03 pm

Sir Mord, no offense taken. I doubt I could beat you about the head & shoulders anyway, unless I snuck up on you. And that's hard to do with a hat like that.

Connor, THANKS!

Well, the fullness in the caftan (or lack of it) was due to the side gores under the arms. I wasn't sure how big to make them, so I just sort of picked a width based on someone else's pattern redaction and went with it. I think if I made another one I'd make it longer, with bigger gores to get that look.
The hat....was draft #3 done at 10pm at night the night before. I think draft 4 will have a slightly different shape at the top, and have some reinforcing stuff inside it, unless I can find a better felt. Their hats ('ushuk') were made from wool felt, and I couldn't get my hands on any in time.
Maeryk, I'd love a quiver like that. Donating to the Poor Court Baron Fund? :twisted:

I don't know if you noticed, but his bow is under his other arm (for some bizarre reason).

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:05 pm

Baron Alejandro wrote:The hat....was draft #3 done at 10pm at night the night before. I think draft 4 will have a slightly different shape at the top, and have some reinforcing stuff inside it, unless I can find a better felt. Their hats ('ushuk') were made from wool felt, and I couldn't get my hands on any in time.

What did you use instead of wool?

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:07 pm

acrylic felt. IT WAS ALL I COULD FIND! :oops:

I still got sorta the right look.

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:48 pm

Maeryk wrote:Looks REALLY sweet!

I would assume the bow is in a quiver as well.. but have no way to tell that.

Maeryk

The bow can be seen on the other side in a bow case which is also worn on the belt. The quiver is too small for war and would probably been for target use.

I make Turkish-style arrows when you're ready for arrows. Figure $10-15 per arrow depending on options. Horn nocks or wood reenforced nocks, tapered shafts, natural wild turkey or goose feathers, silk wrapped fletching, etc. Good stuff.

They would have used horn bows, but that'll set you back $1500 minimum. For a fiberglass reproduction, consider www.grozerarchery.com. They make a Turkish bow that is very nice.

Ron

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:50 am

"For a fiberglass reproduction, consider www.grozerarchery.com. They make a Turkish bow that is very nice. "

Yeah, for anyone interested in a solid, but cheap reproduction, I'd take Grozer... His work is excellent! He also does fully-accurate reproductions, and makes them custom for under $2,000.

Here's my Fiberglass-reinforced Turkish Flight bow from him... It's got wood siyahs, a wood grip, wood running down the belly of the arms (with the fiberglass in front) and is completely leather covered (except the siyahs).

[img]http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/files/1_124.jpg[/img]

[img]http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/files/3_226.jpg[/img]

Anyway, Alenjandro...

The outfit looks great! Very impressive, and insipring! Since I got my Turkish bow some year and a half ago, I've always wanted to get an outfit together to have an excuse to wear it to faires! I'd personally have a less colorful selection of garments, likely having a hat of the same style, but with a white outercoat, and red undershirt and pants.

If I can find good reason to believe that I could be an infantry archer historically, I'd try to get an outfit together, but I don't like the idea of being a cavalry soldier without a horse!

Cheers!

-Gregory-

DAVID01 · Post by **DAVID01** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:13 pm

Dang Gregory, you must have a well paying job to buy such a fine bow. :lol:

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:35 pm

For a 16 year old, yeah...

But, I only paid $500 for everything when I bought it (he offered it for Euro's to match USD at the time, too! So, that made it cheaper). Because mine is fiberglass reinforced, instead of sinew/horn reinforced, it only cost 300 EU, even now... US $400 or so... (Just the bow)

-Gregory-

DAVID01 · Post by **DAVID01** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:51 pm

Thats a Fine looking bow, I built a Cherokee style bow a few years ago because an artest friend bet me he could make a better one than I could. I made mine from boedark(sp) branch (Horse apple tree) I'm not sure what he used I think it was western cedar. Anyway mine out shot his buy far, I was really proud of this bow because I had never made one before. I even made arrows from river willow,made the heads fromcarving bone and fleched them with turkey feathers all tied on with sinew. What fun I had at our competition, then I decided to doctor it up a bit so I took rawhide and wetwraped it around the middle for my hand. It looked greatafter drying, I took it out drew it back and "POP"! the rawhide hade weakend it and the bow was ruined. Took me weeks to finely throw it away and have never made another since. :lol:

LOL!

knitebee · Post by **knitebee** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:38 pm

here's your quiver http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=40652

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:15 pm

Alejandro, your re-creation is really, really cool. :!:

There seems to be a lot of crossover in clothing styles between the Persian and Turkish clothing during this time period especially, and having dabbled in Persian I'll give you some thoughts on the under-caftan. It looks like from the picture the fabric used to make this garment is rather drapey and foldy. Also, those arms are the typical super-long sleeves seen in under-caftans of the time. I'm thinking that if you made this garment in a light wool that's been fulled and extended your sleeve pattern by 50%, you'd get really close to the look in that picture.

With the over-caftan, it looks to me like the armhole opening is done somewhat differently than your interpretation (though yours would also be appropriate I think, for that time and place -- variations on a theme). There doesn't appear to be a tube portion of the sleeve, but rather a wide-cut sleeveless armhole set past the shoulder. Off the back half of the armhole hangs a squared-off swath of cloth, sort of a Turkish tippet, I suppose.

Anyway, I think this look is harder to tailor/pattern than one might suppose on first glance, and what you've done is quite good. Would that everyone took such effort!

-Tasha

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:03 pm

Marcele_mka_Tasha wrote:
With the over-caftan, it looks to me like the armhole opening is done somewhat differently than your interpretation (though yours would also be appropriate I think, for that time and place -- variations on a theme). There doesn't appear to be a tube portion of the sleeve, but rather a wide-cut sleeveless armhole set past the shoulder. Off the back half of the armhole hangs a squared-off swath of cloth, sort of a Turkish tippet, I suppose.

I was wondering about that as well. Then I thought, that the line on the shoulder might just be a seam line, and his sleeve was just a little longer. Hmm.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:59 pm

Alejandro, that's a nice kit. I have a picture flloating around somewhere of a similar soft kit I wore last year with the Bethlen Gabor group in Budapest...

Ron is DEFINITELY your go-to guy for the arrows. For Turkish arrows, though, you're going to want to stick to bodkins if you shop Grozer. I have several of his stuff, and greatly prefer his work to Kassai's -- though both are good. Grozer's arrowheads are low-carbon iron and will not take a decent edge... but otherwise he's an excellent source.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:17 pm

I always knew that Tasha loved me.

Just kidding - there's a reason for the lack of length on the under-caftan sleeves. If you look at Italian Renaissance art, you learn pretty quick that they loooooved to draw/paint/sculp/carve folds in clothing. Lots of examples of this. So after comparing Bellini's portrait with a slew of Turkish miniatures, I decided that Bellini was just having fun showing off how well he could draw folds in clothing. I couldn't find any other sleeves that long either in extant garments or in Turkish miniatures.

As to the sleeve, I think whether it's a real sleeve or a Turkish tippet is up to conjecture. I think that the shading in that drawing could go either way, so I opted for a real sleeve. I freely admit that it could be a Turkish tippet.

Russ, you should post pictures of your kit too.

As far as turkish archery, unless someone's willing to donate to the Poor Court Baron Fund, I don't see myself getting those bits....I have an Iolo crossbow for my late European persona, and that's about as far as it goes. What I'm really trying to concentrate on is finding sources for how the Janissaries learned swordplay. I'm convinced that one of the most crack units in Renaissance warfare weren't just issued sabers and pointed towards the enemy - "Go get 'em, kid." I'm toying with the idea of phoning up the Turkish Ministry of Culture and asking them if they know anything.

Thanks everyone for your positive comments. Whoot!

Alejandro

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:53 pm

Baron Alejandro wrote:...This is (as far as I can tell) the only extant European drawing of a Janissary from SCA period...

Doesn't Vecellio's book of costumes feature a number of illustrations of Jannisaries? It falls within the SCA time period.

BTW you look marvelous!

Cheers,
Tim

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:00 pm

Baron Alejandro wrote:If you look at Italian Renaissance art, you learn pretty quick that they loooooved to draw/paint/sculp/carve folds in clothing. Lots of examples of this. So after comparing Bellini's portrait with a slew of Turkish miniatures, I decided that Bellini was just having fun showing off how well he could draw folds in clothing. I couldn't find any other sleeves that long either in extant garments or in Turkish miniatures.

Dear Baron, I'll have to defer on Turkish knowledge as I really don't have that much of it.

I can only say for sure that Persian miniatures often show such super-long sleeves -- both pushed up in folds and hanging down past the knees.

I freely admit that it could be a Turkish tippet.

I completely made that up, y'know. It's probably a vestigial version of a split tube sleeve, if you want to get technical.... :wink:

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:42 am

I'll see what I can do... but said sleeves are also depicted in Hungarian church wall paintings obviously not done by renaissance Italians...

Robert of Canterbury · Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:10 am

On The UnderSleeves in the line drawing, The first thing I thought was, "Those wrinkle just the way my sleeves do!"

I have a close fitted 14th C cote, Worn with a linen undershirt, Which folds up just the same way around the elbow, where there is spare material. If I had surplus length as others have suggested, it would give the same effect.

The Cote is cut from medium weight Cashmere blend wool with a well fulled finish. (Pricey, but so worth while)

If you have the option, It is worth investing in. The difference in the way some fabrics behave compared to others is astonishing.

Spiffy look BTW, Good to see a heathen who knows what type of scoundrel he is...

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:24 pm

Howdy!

You know, let it never be said I'm always right. I could be offbase about the extra long sleeves, and the split outer sleeves. My research is by no means complete..but then, is it ever? But, the goal was achieved by at least mimicking the look fairly close-on.

BTW, studbuckle, can you give more info on the Vecellio reference? I'm not familiar with it and I'd like to be.

Donations to the Poor Court Baron Fund to buy me a Turkish bow are now being taken. ;-)

If ya'll will buy me one I'll make another set of caftans with different sleeves.

Alejandro

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:05 pm

Alejandro, please don't think I'm telling you you're wrong -- because I still think your outfit looks dashing and studly and all that good stuff. :wink:

-Tasha

Sasha_Khan · Post by **Sasha_Khan** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:59 pm

Gunaydin, arkadashlarim!

Alejandro - very nice job indeed. I have forwarded this to my seamstress - she'll be quite pleased to see someone get it right.

Here's a link to a temporary page with some of her reconstructions - although I need to get some better pictures of the yeniceri dress uniform up there... http://www.temurkhanlar.com/clothing/

Sasha - who is hoping to have a more workaday yeniceri outfit finished by Estrella

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:09 am

Hey, Tasha, don't worry, there's enough of me to go around. :lol:

Ok, I couldn't even type that with a straight face.

Sasha_khan, merhaba! Holee cow! That website is awesome. Anybody who likes what I did needs to check out Sasha's website. I especially like the ushuk at the bottom of the page. I think I know what the first thing I'm doing to my yeniceri outfit is.

Sasha, when you get your outfit together get pics! Have you seen the Meheter that marches at Pennsic? I'll see if I can dig up pictures.

Alejandro, whose turkish name is Iskender.

Sasha_Khan · Post by **Sasha_Khan** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 9:58 am

Arkadash Iskander:

The yeniceri outfit is done - I've had it for several years, I just don't have any full-length shots of it that I am happy with.

I have seen photos (and video) of the Pennsic mehter band - unfortunately I attend a Turkish music retreat that runs concurrent to Pennsic most years.

This year, we took Cristobal's (my coutourier and bandmate) larger truck - which meant we had room to take some historical costumes for the nightly pre-concert 'fashion' shows (in addition to all the instruments)- and the reaction from the Turks over the three costumes went from stunned to wildly vocal in about 3 seconds...

I may be coming out to Pennsic for a few days this year - we'll certainly have to meet up and terrify the Euros - I'll have to bring my kaba zurnas and play some of the mehter music I love so much (and my evil neighbours hate)

Sasha - the Caidan chor-bashi.

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:09 pm

Sasha_khan wrote:Arkadash Iskander:

The yeniceri outfit is done - I've had it for several years, I just don't have any full-length shots of it that I am happy with.

I have seen photos (and video) of the Pennsic mehter band - unfortunately I attend a Turkish music retreat that runs concurrent to Pennsic most years.

Sasha's Janisary outfit definitely rocks. Too bad you don't have a full length picture. You should consider getting flat pictures of the garments to show the pattern layout.

I have a pretty cool caftan with the button on sleeves that I made after the last time the Topkapi costume exhibit was down in San Diego. I was able to copy one of them with only minor measurement changes.

We'll have to coordinate a Turkish invasion sometime...

-J

per lillelund jensen · Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:12 pm

Hi Alejandro

I love your janissary outfit, straith from the sieges of Rhodes 1522.

regards

Per L

jester · Post by **jester** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:26 am

Where's your spoon?

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:28 am

ANyone got a good pattern for making that quiver in the drawing? it _looks_ like a closed to quiver, but I did quite a search on the internet and couldnt find anything that remotely looked like that..

Maeryk

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:46 pm

Per, THANKS! You nailed the time period within 20 years. You go, man.

Jester - the spoon will be incorporated into hat draft number 5.

Maeryk, maybe you should try writing the grozer archery people that Gregory got his bow from. P'raps they could help.

Alejandro

Turkish janissary soft kit

Turkish janissary soft kit

Re: Turkish janissary soft kit

VERY nice

Kaftans and such

Re: Kaftans and such