As a Marshal, OH MY GOD !

[Troy Hafallen]

I realize that each of the different groups has there own set of rules to fight by, I am going to ask you guys about several things I see in this groups set of photos that are major saftey concerns, and in the SCA we would not allow.

Maybe someone out there can tell me what a wimp I am, or where these people buy their insurance.

I am in the SCA and have been a Marshal for 4 years, a fighter for 9, so I am very familiar with our saftey rules and the whys for each of them.

check out this photo.

http://bel-knight.com/gallery/viewpic.p ... viewtype=1

There is a man on fire!
I dont even want to think about the incident reports that would have to be done on that.

There are at least two archers preparing to fire their bows, they have NO head armor. What if they catch an arrow in the face?
Their arrows, as I looked over the site until I found a close up on one, it is a blunt, maybe 3/4 inch wide, the arrows have NO BOUNCE BACK DEVICE at all. Not that it would be needed as there are alot of fighters with open face helms, or eye slots large enough to allow my fist.

I know that with steel the blows are delivered differently than SCA fighting, but from veiwing these photos they seem to be pretty aggressive on the field.

It is something that I have longed to try.
Am I over reacting or do I just not know enough about steel fighting?

[Maeryk]

It is something that I have longed to try.
Am I over reacting or do I just not know enough about steel fighting?

From the poses of the people involved, I'd say that looks more like a demo situation (ren faire joust?) than like a live combat scenario.

Maeryk

[jester]

Near as I can tell this group does re-enactment. They probably aren't doing any unscripted fighting. I couldn't find any combat rules, though. So I could be wrong.

[Mike Garrett (Orc)]

Steel fighting is great. Blows are controlled but it's still competitive (one group rules say that strike stength should be like a firm slap - wonderfully subjective! . Full contact steel combat is only for the heavily armoured!
Insurance - over here in Britain insurance that is required is public liability ( in case you kill a member of the public ) normally carried by the group you belong to. I'm sure some people take out personal injury insurance, but none that I know.

I guess that you fight/play as rough as you want. Helmets are not always a requirement with steel re-enactment groups, neither is armour - if portraying history you can't have a field of fully armoured guys! Where are the arow fodder......sorry peasants!
I think it's something you have to try then decide wether you like it.
As for the photo - I fought in similar style combats - no burning man though .
Last year at Templecombe medieval festival - headshots allowed by agreement (in the mass battle) with your opponent - only one hospital case out of about 200 combatants. Great fun.

[Mike Garrett (Orc)]

Jester - why do you equate (or seem to) re-enactment combat with being scripted?

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

It is something that I have longed to try.
Am I over reacting or do I just not know enough about steel fighting?

From the poses of the people involved, I'd say that looks more like a demo situation (ren faire joust?) than like a live combat scenario.

Maeryk

No malice, offense, stoopiditee, thread derailment etc intended here, but I feel that I must stridently interject:

Our Troupe does exclusively full-contact combat jousting at Renfaires across North America. Never staged, never will be.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled Prorgamme:

Choreographed or not, that is one of the coolest websites I have seen in a long time. The dude on fire positively blew my mind. ::applause::

[Odo]

Come on Troy! So one guy gets set on fire. You are acting like this is a life or death situation. Don't you realize that fire was used in period and is still an effective weapon against opposing forces. Sheesh man, next thing you know you will probably kick some poor smuck off the field for having a loose chinstrap.

BTW, look at the gap in the back of the head of the guy wearing the blue/white quartered surcoat.

Odo

[Guy Dawkins]

The people sitting in the background have made NO ATTEMPT at period attire

Or maybe they have.

[James B.]

Have to agree with Mr. Orc here, even scripted sides winning does not mean people are not actually fighting. Even a scripted winner is not choreographed fighting.

[Patton Lives]

Well you know how that old saying goes

Give a man fire, you'll keep him warm for a night

Set a man on fire, you'll keep him warm for the rest of his life.

[Guy Dawkins]

I don't see that the guy on fire is wearing a gorget

[Mike Garrett (Orc)]

Never fought a choreographed fight in my life ( well - ok for TV, but thats not really fighting!)
Some battles are scripted in the sense of
1) enemy approaches walls. Much taunting and baring of buttocks. (archers may fire)
2)noisy clash at the pallisade. Withdraw.
3)Mass brawl.

All fighting is competitive- you fight to win. If you didn't fight as best as you can what would be the point?

Generally even historical battles are fought so that either side can win. In recent years the Anglo-Saxon have won at Hastings several times, to the best of my knowledge

[jester]

Jester - why do you equate (or seem to) re-enactment combat with being scripted?

I am not equating re-enactment combat with scripting. I am tentatively equating the specific re-enactment combat these guys are doing with scripting.

And let me be clear what I mean by scripting. Scripted combat specifies what will happen in general. Combatants improvise within these guidelines. This is different from choreographed combat in which every blow is carefully scripted.

Example: If these guys were doing a recreation of the Battle on the Ice then you know who's going to win. The Germans are not going to pull off an upset victory because they are having a good day fighting.

While these guys may engage in free-form combat without a scripted end-scenario, I haven't seen any evidence of it. The evidence I have seen, through the Altavista Babelfish translator, indicates that they re-enact specific events. If they do engage in free-form combat without any scripting then I'd love to see their rule-set and equipment standards.

[Ceddie]

Come on Troy! So one guy gets set on fire. You are acting like this is a life or death situation. Don't you realize that fire was used in period and is still an effective weapon against opposing forces. Sheesh man, next thing you know you will probably kick some poor smuck off the field for having a loose chinstrap.

BTW, look at the gap in the back of the head of the guy wearing the blue/white quartered surcoat.

Odo

I bet we can talk Karl into it!!!

[mrks]

and that is part of why the attitude within the SCA marshalette is like it is. "

We cant let you do that because it MIGHT be dangerous. And so many fun things are banned or not allowed by the marshals decision."

have you considered the guy on fire might have rehearsed and practiced being on fire. he seems fine with it.

if the Samoan and Fijian guys can do fire dances with burning knives and walk on burning platforms with a towel wrapped around their waist... why can't a guy in full armour play with a little fire?

why can't sca guys use steel weapons for re-enactment and demo purposes? SCA insurance fears or lawsuit problems? Other governments are much more permissive with its populace about what is dangerous?

in those reenactments people do get injured. they choose to participate.

the SCA marshalette seems to want to make everything as safe as possible including getting hit with a stick.

in the case of thin shafted arrows I am rather thankful for their care

with war scenarios I am not. if I want to run around in armour an a semi steep hillside and hit people I should be allowed to.

[Flosi]

All re-enactment combat I have been involved in is a test of skill rather than acting ability. Although the group I am in scripts battles to some degree in the sense given by Mr Orc, the fights are you versus the world and anything can, and will, happen.

As for helmets and armour, I train twice a week with neither. At displays I wear armour but that is more persona based than safety as I portray a member of the norman elite.

We use archery on the battlefield with just rubber blunts against people wearing no armour or helmets, although training is needed before you are certified safe to do so.

In one of our early siege displays it was my job to carry a container of flammable liquid across the field while under fire from archers, with the person carrying a burning torch a pace or 2 behind me. This was then used to burn the gate down to give reason for the defenders to leave the fort. While they were not aiming to hit me they were still bouncing arrows off the shields that were covering me.

You will generally find most re-enactment groups that appear to be this lax on rules and safety issues are the ones where its a small group that knows everyone there and it is all well practised. I have not had anything more serious than a bruise in the last 4 years fighting without protection, and the injury I had 4 years ago was a spear to the face caused by me blocking the shot wrong. That is the only time I have had to go to hosptial as a result of combat.

Oh, and I am insane too......

[Maeryk]

No malice, offense, stoopiditee, thread derailment etc intended here, but I feel that I must stridently interject:

Our Troupe does exclusively full-contact combat jousting at Renfaires across North America. Never staged, never will be.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled Prorgamme:

I cannot believe that J random re-enactor gets set on fire. I suspect at least _THAT PART_ of it is staged.. perhaps not the entire combat.. but I'd be willing to bet it did not come as a surprise that that guy got set on fire.

That was what I meant.. not that all their combat is chroeographed.. but that particular part probably was. At the very least so available safety personnel (which they must have) would know what the hell was going to happen and when.

Maeryk

[Mike Garrett (Orc)]

Oh...........that's alright then............

[Alcyoneus]

ITheir arrows, as I looked over the site until I found a close up on one, it is a blunt, maybe 3/4 inch wide, the arrows have NO BOUNCE BACK DEVICE at all.

Neither do ours.

We have required them to have something to keep them from penetrating legal eyeslots, however.

[jester]

Okay. I was curious so I looked for more information. So near as I can tell most these Russian groups are not engaging in competitive combat as we would understand it in the SCA. They are doing re-enactment or movie work. Some of them are professional stuntmen.

That said, I did find an interesting reference to the Sword of Russia (now the Championship of Russia) which is an annual historical fencing tournament that has been running for at least 4 years (they say 8 but I only saw evidence for 4). It apparently has at least 1 competitive combat with steel weapons and they refer to a rule-set that I was unable to locate.

Here are some of the sites I found:
http://www.barcnews.org/cgi-bin/barc_en ... pl=a_news1
http://ironwolf.iatp.by/index_eng.htm
http://www.stuntmaster.ru/e_sword.shtml
http://english.pravda.ru/sport/2001/09/08/14600.html

http://www.westower.koenigsberg.ru/
http://www.irbis.h1.ru/
http://licviny.narod.ru/Ryc.htm

[Winterfell]

As far the guy on fire is concerned, I thought I had a tough time blackening my mail hauberk.
As far as SCA combat rules and Marshall regulations go, it normally follows what I call the "Most Common Idiot Factor". Just because James B. and I can go full speed with steel, move to disarm and grappling and and eventually take down to the ground, does not mean that Lord William Robert aka "Billy Bob" is any where near safe to do even limited grappling, pushing, or should go near a steel sword. (apologies if there really is a Lord William Robert)
The current issue with the Side Sword experiment is a perfect example of the lack of unified training, understanding and themes in regards to a dangerous weapon, that the SCA fosters.
I cannot count the number of times I have encountered SCA combatants (fencers and heavies) who still do not have a fundemental undestanding of how a sword works and why.
(Something I am seriously thinking of teaching a class on at Univeristy soon.)

[Halvgrimr]

my standard reply to scripted battle remarks

Mass melees (like Hastings) often have a 'skeleton script'
By this I mean there is a basic plan of when certain things need to occur.
Other than that, the fighting and how realistic it looks to the crows (showmanship) is up to each individual fighter in that battle.


Singles fighting is a bit different.
For our shows we 'script' one or two things that will happen during the fight and who will die (and sometimes how they die)

Other than that it is up to us, our skill with the weapons, our 'showmanship' and a little stamina to get us thru the fight.

We do this for crowds so the standard one shot SCA fight isn't the norm for us.

Its what I like most about steel fighting (I SCA fight as well for those that don't know), dragging the crowd into what is going on and hearing them applaud afterwards.

Also, most archery is volley fire in mass melee.
It is scripted and the opposing side knows when its coming.
Normally there are 'watchers' posted on the end of each line, there job is to let the shield wall know when archers step out to volley.

When the archers do so a shieldburh is called, this is a bit like the Roman testudo, and receives the volley.

It is still very wise in these situations to NOT look up;)

I agree with mrks, this is one of those situations were the SCA has told us for so long that this is dangerous we instantly shift into "OH MY GOD" mode.

This has been done for decades in the UK, Europe and Australia.
And to date I have never heard of a death or even a major injury.
This isn't to say they haven't happened, I just haven't heard of them.


Halv

[Mike Garrett (Orc)]

I died once..........got better though