WHY IS ARMOR SO EXPENSIVE

white mountain armoury · Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:09 am

My panties are not in a bunch, just answering your question.
Here are some thoughts on getting onto the field for short money
Buy elbows and knees from vulcans forge, im not sure of his prices, but id guess you could getinto mild steel elbows and knees for 50.00 or so.
You said you made a spaudler so you should be all set on shoulder protection. you can get enough canvase for a coat of plates for 10.00 and can use 5 gallon buckets to make the plates, you can get the buckets for free if you are a good scrounge, roofinf nails and washer will hold the plates in place.
you can get a side of 10/12 oz leather for 75.00, from that you can make your cuisses and vambraces and rebraces and gorget and demi gaunts, you can use remaining bucket pieces to put splints on the inside of the cuisses and vams, use the same roofing nails.
Go to trueheart for a cheap helmet, or ashcroft baker, baker will set you up for 80.00 or so
Buckles and leather dye and odds and ends should set you back about 20.00
That and some sweat and labor should set you up for less than 250.00 even less when you think about how many vams/cuisses etcf you can get from a side of leather.
If you take your time the above items can make for a good looking kit

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:25 am

Dire 38

If you are willing to put in some time and effort on your stuff I can give you some tips on how to put a nice looking kit to cover the arms, legs, and body for about $100 and still look good on the field.

Minus the helm, maille, guantlets, and arming coat this is a $120 investment:

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/images/myarmor.jpg[/img]

I made my first kit because I didn't have money for spring steel, which I have on order now, and I did not want to buy heavy mild equipment that didn't fit me.

Email me flonzy@hotmail.com

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:46 am

White Mountain Armoury is right, armor is expensive because of the time and labor involved in making it.

Finding armor for a group is a particuallarly frustrating business. I've done this before, and if you lived any closer, I'd probably come over to help you. Not everybody has the skill to build their own stuff, and I have the scars to prove it.

The first rule of making mass armor is deciding what you want to spend money on. I would advise the following:

Spend money on:
Helmets.
Knee protection.
Elbow protection.
Hand protection.
A good power drill and bits
A good couple of ball-peen hammers
A leather strap cutter.
A good utility knife (have three or four).
A good metal cutting saw.

The second rule of making mass armor is KISS--Keep it simple stupid!

The third rule is network. Go to events, find out what other folks are doing. Someone else may have the solution to your problem.

Learn to dumpster dive. Dive around in a large car during spring clean-up in your community. I've found all sorts of useful things.

Mord.

PS. PM me your snail-mail address.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:57 am

Here is a list of items to help get your guys on the field:

GAA Armouries Intermediate Wisby kit - $60
http://www.gaa-armouries.com/body.htm
Canvas cloth for CoP - $15
Stone Keep 3 Lame Steel Pauldrons - $39
http://www.shop.store.yahoo.com/spiers- ... pa3la.html
True Hearth Armoury 1/2 Gauntlets - $35
http://www.dbis.ns.ca/~carlomeg/arms.html
Armour and Castings elbow cops w/ quilted padding - $30
http://armourandcastings.com/catalog/pr ... ucts_id=56
Armour and Castings Knee cops w/ quilted padding - $30
http://armourandcastings.com/catalog/pr ... ucts_id=56
Brettun's Village Armour leather side - $75
http://www.brettunsvillage.com/leather/sides.htm
(15-18 sq/ft 9-11oz thickness)
(More than enough to make vambraces, cuisses, and a gorget out of)

Walmart Blue Camp Foam - $5

Total:$289

to make it even cheaper you can make your own COPs out of canvas, pickle barrels, roofing nails, and lacing. Total investment $25 maybe.

those same pickle barrels can be cuisses for thigh armour AND you can make a Brigadine Gorget out of them.

The play in the SCA there is going to be a financial committment. Certain armour pieces you must buy and you can't get around it unless you can armour yourself or know an armourer that will teach you.

I was in the SCA for 6 months before I got all my armour together. Only being in for 1 month is not that bad. Most people take much longer to gather armour up.

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:50 am

I must admit, that I don't like "pickle barrels" for armor. The barrels that I am thinking of are simply too thin and too flexible.

I barrels I have used are large and are usually made of blue plastic--you find them at car washes. In Philly, we used to get them for free.

Mord.

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:54 am

The other thing to consider is if to start out all of your friends need their own set of armor. I know it is a pain and you cannot get authorized (in the SCA) until you have a full set, but when I first joined with the Georgia Tech group (House of St. Ambrose), most of the loaner stuff was designed for someone who wasnt 6'5 and 175# (me and yes I know I am a beanpole). I ended up borrowing one of the other guys bauzibands (arm and bracer combos), greathelm, and heater shield so that I could fight. It wasnt easy but it worked. I am about to get my full get (come Meridian MWAS) as soon as a friend sells me his sword and shield basket. I got a greatly used helm from a friend for $60 (he wasnt using it and took pity on a poor college student), a friend and I made my gorget (maybe $5-10 in steel), I bought a leather kidney belt from galyans ($22), my elbow cops ($10) and demi-gauntlets ($10) are from an armorer who buys used street signs and turns them into armor (Yay for Sir Savogg!) and I found some 3/4 legs of Master Geoffrey that were on sale for $50 (some really early work that I got apparently 7th or 8th hand) but apparently they were commisioned for someone in Atlantia as they are 12 ga. 7 articulated lames with 12 oz. leather wrapped for the back of your legs. So my entire kit that looks pretty good is running me around $160 (maybe $10-15 in blue foam added on) and I am looking for a steel foundry so I can get sheet metal to start making my own lamellar and estimating the material cost at around $40-60. There is nothing wrong though with taping carpet pads to your thighs as armor though if you need something. They were 2 for $3 at Home Depot and worked great. If you can find people that sell used armor it is the way to go. Check with any local groups and see if someone sells aluminum ("street sign") armor as this is usually cheap as well (NOT FOR YOUR HELM!!!). Good luck and if you keep looking stuff is out there!!!

cblackthorne · Post by **cblackthorne** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:11 am

Hello,

One of the best things you can do is trade for used armor. I have heard of people trading yard work for an old helm sitting in someone's garage.

Gaming stuff traded (especially back when Magic was really popular).

Some locals that make chainmail would love to trade a finished product if you are willing to help them with the tedious task of cutting and prep work for mail weaving.

Go to the local government agency that replaces street signs and ask for some officially decommissioned scrap signs and have someone show you how to make some armor.

Arm protection? Buy a set of soccer shin guards to wear on your forearms, elbow pads for your elbows and upper arms then cover it all with a tunic or t-shirt.

Body protection? I know a guy that used a old Army flak jacket covered in tapestry material. I saw someone use an old vest-style life jacket they had laying around (they covered it with a surcoat).

There are alot of inexpensive methods that will get you on the field. You may not be the prettiest newbie out there, but it will allow you to participate.

Just remember to cover all the mundane substitutions with a tunic or surcoat.

Barnet · Post by **Barnet** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:33 am

Greetings,

I am working on getting my kit back in order and I have a few questions. Does Rough from the Hammer and Vulcan Forge have websites?

And I'd like to say that the posts by Egfroth (?), D. Sabastian and Adam at WMA in there lamellar have really inspired me to get back to working on my kit....thanks guys.

DAVID01 · Post by **DAVID01** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:50 pm

Whew, I wonder if he has caught on to "why Armour is so expensive"? Any bets as to how many more pages it will take to explain? LOL

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:38 pm

I am working on getting my kit back in order and I have a few questions. Does Rough from the Hammer and Vulcan Forge have websites?[b]

With luck there will be a new site in about month. Meanwhile I will send an FAQ and price list to the e-mail in your profile.

Dave

Vulcan's Forge Inc/Rough from the Hammer

Dire38 · Post by **Dire38** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:39 pm

hopefully it will take five more pages for it to get through my thick skull. Cause every one of these ideas is getting laid out for new guys like me who didnt know and now we do. but why is it so expensive.

ROC · Post by **ROC** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:54 pm

How much do you think it should cost? I'm not trying to be an ass but lots of very cheep options have been given to you.What are you wanting to spend to keep from getting a cocussion or broken ribs? what is your body worth to you?

ROC

white mountain armoury · Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:07 pm

Dire38 wrote:hopefully it will take five more pages for it to get through my thick skull. Cause every one of these ideas is getting laid out for new guys like me who didnt know and now we do. but why is it so expensive.

I and others have stated why its expensive, because it takes time to produce, should an armourer get the same pay as say an electrician or a mechanic? i certainly think so, Mechanics charge 65.00 and hour, i dont charge close to that. Skilled labor costs money. How much would you like to be paid for 40 hours work? Id like to be paid a fair wage wouldnt you, or are you willing to give away your time for free, im not doing this as a hobby, i do it for a living, so i need to make a wage that will support myself and my family, and pay for my tools and materials.
I dont realy understand why its hard to understand why armour costs alot of money. Its hard work, not everyone can do it. I have spent alomost 10 years learning my trade and gathering the tools to do the work.
<img src="http://www.whitemountainarmoury.com/Rs2.jpg">
Build this helmet, get yourself the tools and materials, design and develop the pattern, shape sand and polish all 28 pieces that make up this helmet and assemble it,drill 84 holes and peen 84 rivits, then weave the stainless maile and weld every link shut,(i buy my maile from a professional mailer) and then sew it by hand to the leather strap, make sure its symetrical and that the welds are safe, when you have done all this sit and ask yourself what you would like to be paid for it, I charged 925.00 for this helmet and it was still a heart breaker to sell because of the time it took to produce, i bleed on this helmet and was burned building this helmet, it was a ton of work

ROC · Post by **ROC** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:19 pm

I think he is just trolling.
Thats a really nice helm Adam I really like the look.

Roc

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:26 pm

I think this last post from him was more of a "thanks for all the ideas for cheap armor you guys are now posting, keep them coming." It seems that Dire has trouble expressing himself clearly. I got it, but it took me three readings in the "he probably means well" mindset.

Dire -- if you wanted to find out how to armour yourself and your friends cheaply, that's what you should have asked. You asked why armor is expensive, so that's the question people are answering. Say what you mean and mean what you say, life will get a lot easier. Too many people do not do this.

-Dmitriy

ROC · Post by **ROC** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:30 pm

If thats the case I'm sorry for my last post.And I hope we can be of help to you.

ROC

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:33 pm

Aaron wrote:
chef de chambre wrote:...There is always carpet and rivets, and failing that pickle buckets...

The world ends today! We have Chef suggesting plastic!! ;)

You see, when I intend sarcasim, it gets mistaken for an honest answer, and when I give honest answers, people assume I'm being mean and sarcastic. Oh, the Irony...

white mountain armoury · Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:35 pm

and please dont think im grumpy becasue i didnt stick smiley faces in my post, im just trying to explain why it can cost alot. There have been plenty of people explaining how to do it on the more affordable side.

broinnfinn · Post by **broinnfinn** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:56 pm

Okay, let me break it down for you:

Make a helm. Okay, to narrow it down, an SCA legal helm. One that looks respectible like something worn in time period.

See now much the sheet metal, rivets and bar stock cost you.

The investment in tools - hammers, dishing cups, planishing balls, a welder, anvil, polishing wheel, etc.

Then, after you are done, see how many hours it took you and multiply that by the wage for a skilled craftsman (think of how much you pay per hour for say, an auto mechanic or a plumber).

Forget about the cost of the utilities and space for your shop.

Now, price it.

Trust me, very few folks on hear come CLOSE to what a helm cost to make, with reasonable labor cost and even spreading the tool investment out over many projects.

Broinnfinn

DAVID01 · Post by **DAVID01** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:38 pm

Dire38 · Post by **Dire38** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:25 am

THAT is such a beautiful helm. i love it i want it so bad. and honestly i did try that. if you look i posted earlier asking about outfiting many fighters for not a whole lot. i got 3 posts. FLIPPING 3. granted they were alot of help. but all be damned i complain about armor and all of a sudden i am swamped by advice and offers to help and ways to make stuff. thanks so much every one and please keep posting. i am just happy i found a way to get yalls attention i guess.

dire

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:59 am

Welcome Broinnfinn, to the Armour Archive....

I must say WMA, that is a damn cool helm....
Welded links you say? Hummmm most time consuming.
I would think it would take 2 people. One feeding the links to the welder.
Just my thoughts as a welders helper a long time ago.

Hal

Ps: Plastic is not Chef's fortuity... or fourragÃƒÂ¨re or how ever one spells it.
Ok.... it is not his cup of tea.

Chris G. · Post by **Chris G.** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:06 am

Nothing new was posted in this thread. You could have gotten your answer faster by using the search feature. Many of these ideas are posted weekly when people come in looking for help.

white mountain armoury · Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:06 am

Hal, the maile is by Master Knuut, i believe they are spot welded. pretty sure its a one person job, he makes great stuff

Jasper · Post by **Jasper** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:58 pm

Jasper stands in front of chef to take the shot.
Since the man mention the p word. If you live in Alabama and can get to Montgomery, bring a jigsaw and I can cut up plates from a plastic 55 gallon coca cola drum.
Jasper closes his eyes and waits for the crossbow bolt.

Padrig · Post by **Padrig** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:20 pm

Jasper wrote:Jasper stands in front of chef to take the shot.
Since the man mention the p word. If you live in Alabama and can get to Montgomery, bring a jigsaw and I can cut up plates from a plastic 55 gallon coca cola drum.
Jasper closes his eyes and waits for the crossbow bolt.

Wow, you sure must like your Coke in Alabama if you buy it in 55 gallon drums. :shock:

Pad

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:53 pm

There are ways to make plastic look good.

You can buy knee cops, elbow cops, spaulders and helmets out of mild steel. Use plastic to make plates for a coat of plates and cuisses. Cover said coat of plates with leather or cloth, and use leather to cover the cuisses and attach the knee cop to it.

Use thick 12 oz leather to make vanbraces and greaves-and rere braces as needed. You can make a mold to shape your leather out of blcks of wood. Make the mold longer than you need it to be, then soak the leather for a few hours in warm water. Shape the leather over the mold with the back of a spoon and TIGHTLY strap it down to the mold with ACE bandages.

It's a lot of work to make the molds-but you are making a lot of armor so it'll be worth it.

Mike F · Post by **Mike F** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:27 pm

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You can buy Coke in 55-gal drums? Where? How much? GIMME!

Ahem.

In order to answer the question, allow me to share finances, albeit very simplified. I spend 40 hours making you a helm. Now, either you get it in several months, or I do this full time. Now, I need to pay to eat, keep the shop open, keep my house, car, girlfiend, etc. Thus, I charge $20/hour and take home maybe $15 after I pay for my shop, materials, insurance, etc.

So, a $800 helm nets me about $600, or about as much as I could get working anywhere else with a few years experience. That's if you don't have a degree, which many of us do.

Thus, while most of the armor can be made cheaper, it won't be sold cheaper. This is why we have patterns and helpful people on the board. Now you can get started and not feel ripped off.

That is why it is so expensive. Unless you want to make me a full suit for free.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:03 pm

That's just a LARGE sippy cup down here in Texas.

(Sorry, couldn't resist) It's an old Louie Anderson routine.

Louie: I want a Slurpie.
Clerk: Medium or Large?
Louie: How big are they?
Clerk: The Medium is this 12 ounce cup. The large is this 55 gallon drum.
Louis: What's the difference?
Clerk: A nickle.

Mike F wrote:Whoa, whoa, whoa. You can buy Coke in 55-gal drums? Where? How much? GIMME!

Wil · Post by **Wil** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:57 am

Hey Dire38,

A friend just emailed me this link- it's at $41 right now, very, very cheap.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 86617&rd=1

TTYL

~Wil

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:56 am

Trevor wrote:There are ways to make plastic look good.

You can buy knee cops, elbow cops, spaulders and helmets out of mild steel. Use plastic to make plates for a coat of plates and cuisses. Cover said coat of plates with leather or cloth, and use leather to cover the cuisses and attach the knee cop to it.

Use thick 12 oz leather to make vanbraces and greaves-and rere braces as needed. You can make a mold to shape your leather out of blcks of wood. Make the mold longer than you need it to be, then soak the leather for a few hours in warm water. Shape the leather over the mold with the back of a spoon and TIGHTLY strap it down to the mold with ACE bandages.

It's a lot of work to make the molds-but you are making a lot of armor so it'll be worth it.

James B. has a very attractive and accurate looking mid 14th century rig, that is mostly plastic, and because of the care he took with it, looks a lot better than some steel rigs that are hurridley done, and are only 'accurate' in that they use some form of ferrous metal.

In my experience observing, many plastic users don't give a damn how they look. For every well done plastic harness, there seem to be 20 or 30 eyesores. Leather can be done a-historically as well. Just because the material is more accurate does not insure the final appearance is.

Hensojin · Post by **Hensojin** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:32 pm

It is expensive yes and no. You pay for what you get!
A SCA helm may cost from 80$ to a 1000$. It depends what you want. And that's the same for any other armour bits...

It's like mundane sports gear (for sport activities not for combat here!). You can buy a full ice hockey suit for what 400$ to may be a few thousand... It is still just plastic, foam and fabric. Why is it so expensive?

Is it really expensive??? Think about it...
How much does it cost to get set to ski? to golf? to do kendo? to do mountain bike? to go camping?

It may seems expensive in the situation where you have to answer a college-age newbie who borrow the loaner kit for his first practice and asked "I want an armour for next practice, how much does it cost?"
I think the best answer is: If you have some time and some skills it will cost you less... put there's a minimum of may be 200$. There is also people to help you getting your armour up, armouring sessions, pattern sharing, . But if you only want to buy everything a 350$ is a minimum...

In my little part of the East Kingdom, I used to do armour workshop every month when the temperature is tolerable. Newbies are working on their first kit (obviously mostly plastic or leather), intermediates are working on their second kits (upgrading! less plastic, more authentic pattenrs, etc) and old timers helping as much as they can... ("You'll have to wear at least a tabard to cover that plastic torso!!!", "Don't use that blue barrel, it's our trash bin!!!")

Just my 2 cents!

adric · Post by **adric** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:31 pm

Armor IS cheap - you just don't make enough money! :twisted:

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:13 pm

Armour is almost criminally cheap. I occasionally need lab equipment fabricated out of sheet metal. if I order a custom piece that takes as long as WMA takes to make that wonderful helm, I expect to pay about 10 grand.

I do not understand how any of the pro armourers on this board keep going,unless you are working for hollywood like Ugo. If you can order armour, and get it on schedule you should understand how lucky you are that these guys make it for the insane (read low) prices they charge.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:11 am

It's a hard thing to be passionate, isn't it?

Having met Dire in person, I can tell you that he is definitely passionate about what we're doing. And passion, when untempered, can very easily come across very negatively.

This person has heart, I will tell you. He walked into a fighter practice composed mostly of knights and an Uber Duke and took his lumps with the best of them. At several points three of his limbs were not touching the ground, and at least two of those limbs (he was fighting two sword) were swinging toward his opponent. I point this out to show that upon the Anvil of Virtue, he is raw untried steel waiting to be forged into a true weapon of chivalry.

He fought me two swords vs. polearm, which I consider to be insanity. Yet, he took my best swings and didn't back down.

If you have only viewed his words online (which is a clumsy medium of interpretation), I would ask that you not judge him. Meet him in person and re-evaluate your opinion. He's just frustrated, and probably didn't express himself very well.

I have also advised him, in person, to choose his words cautiously.

There is something to be salvaged here, I"ll wager. Mayhaps we'll see what can be done.

Until then, rest assured that Dire is getting some help. Hopefully at some point pictures will get posted of several new fighters in kits that don't look like @$$.