Churburg-7 plate globose-With a fauld?

Dougal Forester · Post by **Dougal Forester** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:02 pm

Hello,
Recently I became interested in Brigandines, and after searching around found White Rose Apparel. They are an armoury that seems to specialize in Brigandines and COPs. They make beautiful, albeit pricey stuff. I found a link off their site "White Rose Armoury and Heritage Arms". www.whiterosearmoury.co.uk They make gorgeous suits/pieces of armour. However on their site I found a picture of a reproduction of the Churburg harness, except it had this V shaped fauld coming off the breastplate. Is their any documentation for this? Did such faulds exist? I seem to remember some effigies with this on them but my memory is hazy.

Regards, Dougal

Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:27 pm

The source for this anamoly is Pistoia Cathedral. It is on the silver altar of St. James. The breastplate in question is a solid one.... not segmented.

A very nice article regarding the alterpieces of St. John and St. James can be found on the ARS Member's Website. The article is by Doug Strong (Talbot).

The gentleman who runs Whiterose has told me via e-mail that he has physical proof that the segmented breastplate at Churburg would have been originally assembled in this fashion. However, he did not share other than to state that their are a couple of odd holes on the breastplates from the 14th century that proves it was so.

To my knowledge, the alter of St. James is the only representation of this unique configuration.

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:28 pm

<img src="http://www.whiterosearmoury.co.uk/New%20Folder/agincourt.JPG">

The effigy of Burkhard von Steinburg shows such a fauld, although it seems to be the only Germanic effigy that does. Most common in the 1360's and 1370's were covered faulds that seem to have full width lames right to the bottom edge. Many faulds are obscured by the skirt of the jupon, so we can't see what they look like or if they have one at ball.

Erik

Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:53 pm

Erik Schmidt wrote:
The effigy of Burkhard von Steinburg shows such a fauld, although it seems to be the only Germanic effigy that does.

Erik

Does the Steinburg effigy have a solid breastplate?

I would not doubt that something of this nature could have existed.... howeve, I would question the existance on a segmented breastplate.

Karl · Post by **Karl** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:18 pm

Since the first time I saw that photo I've wondered how one could possibly ride a horse wearing it. I love the way it looks in any case.

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:01 am

Brian W. Rainey wrote:Does the Steinburg effigy have a solid breastplate?

Yes, although it's also a bit of a one off. It has bumps on it that make it look like a bad attempt at a muscled breastplate.

The pointed groin is a constant theme in central European armour in the 2nd half of the 14th century, but mostly through the lower edge of the mail hauberk being extended at the middle of the front.
This shape seems rare in lamed faulds, but I came across two more examples, both from Denmark. One is a stained glass window of Heinrik Plot and the other a wall painting with several figures wearing such lamed faulds.

Erik

Mikael · Post by **Mikael** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:39 am

What kind of a source did you have for the other one?

I think I am familiar with Henrik Plot window. (Which apparently is the only reference there is to this knight at all.)

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:04 am

The wall painting is from the Gimlinge church in Roskilde and dated to 1409.

Erik

Jacob · Post by **Jacob** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:51 am

Here is an image from the silver alter of St. James showing the fauld. It's a bit odd but there were probably a few of them. It would be more odd on a segmented breastplate.

PS: The only existing segmented breastplate, often referred to as THE Churburg breastplate despite the rest of the collection, has 9 plates.

Dougal Forester · Post by **Dougal Forester** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:16 pm

Hello,

7, 9...I'm odd number challenged!

I've been following this discussion with interest. So, the V shaped fauld "probably" existed from 1370-1415' ish in Northern and Central Europe. I'm delighted to hear this. I've always admired the "Churburg" harness, as most re-enactors probably do, but the bare area from the bottom of the breastplate to the tops of the legs, always looked rather, well, bare. Probably if someone were on a horse while wearing this harness, it wouldn't look so odd. 1400, or any time in the second half of the Hundred Years War, is the time that I aspire to portray in armour and garb. Does anyone have an idea what is running out of the back of the helmet of the knight standing to our left (his right) of the knight with the fauld in question. It looks like scales. Klingon? (kidding!) Could any of you provide the links to this church window or to the effigies in question so that I can save em?

Thank You,
Dougal

Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:24 pm

Dougal Forester wrote: Could any of you provide the links to this church window or to the effigies in question so that I can save em?

Thank You,
Dougal

Remember that when you use art as a source... you are also using the artists interpretation of the situation and potentially not the actually thing. A lot of artwork is doen in the style of armour or clothing at the time... and does not necessarily depict the real thing. Often, artistic interpretation/imagination/memory is a big part of the scenario.

Given the function of the segmented breastplate... I would not venture to put a fauld on one.

Patton Lives · Post by **Patton Lives** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 4:09 pm

doesnt it look like its hanging from 2 other faulds? It almost looks like a tasset. its strange that there is a gap on the bottom left and right where the fauld slopes forward. I wonder if it flexes forward to allow mounting a horse

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:56 pm

Drachus wrote:doesnt it look like its hanging from 2 other faulds? It almost looks like a tasset. its strange that there is a gap on the bottom left and right where the fauld slopes forward. I wonder if it flexes forward to allow mounting a horse

You may be referring to the "lames", those long metal strips lain horizontally to make up the "fauld", which is the term used to denote an armour of the hips/groin which hangs from the breastplate.

The gaps left and right have to be there if the fauld narrows to a tip. I don't see how that is strange.

The fauld on the modern reproduction is not correctly done, having the last section joined into a single piece. We don't see this on any of the period representations of them. In each case we see numerous lames of equal width making up the fauld right to it's tip. Each of these lames would have articluated to the next on leathers or a backing so that when mounting a horse it would bush together like any other lamed fauld.

Dougal, here is the Burkhard von Steinberg effigy;
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/058/04 ... 04c05a.jpg

The helmet 'tail' on the alterpiece is certainly interesting. It's been guessed at much in the past. No-one can say for sure.

Erik

Mikael · Post by **Mikael** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:09 am

Thanks for the reference Erik.

How would these continue to the backside? Any guesses?

The altarpiece would look to cover the top of the butt, the reconstruction seems to cover only the front.

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:22 am

My guess is they don't.

Erik