SCA authenticity keeps cruising on..

[Steve S.]

I never cease to be astounded by the progress the equestrian folks are doing in the SCA community.

Check this out: THIS is the SCA!

http://www.chiptalbert.com/photo-album/ ... mo-015.jpg

Now I know you hard-core Living History and real-jouster folks will scoff at the fake styrofoam lances and other anachronisms.

But, from my SCA-background perspective, what is going on in these photos is AMAZING. It is freaking amazing that there is any kind of equestrian combat whatsoever going on (I understand they do boffer combat as well). The fact that there is any kind of active jousting at all is stunning.

I dont' care how much of a naysayer you are, you can't have watched the progress of the SCA from where it has been in the days of carpet armour and freon-can helms to this and not be impressed. I am!

Steve

[Mike F]

Hey, you got a SCAdian on my horse!

Hey, you got a horse under my SCAdian!

...

Anyway, I agree with you, this is quite important! I'm very happy to see the SCA as a whole at least trying to up their authenticity. Sure, it may never happen for 90% of the SCA, but everyone is looking for something different.

[Maeryk]

Anyway, I agree with you, this is quite important! I'm very happy to see the SCA as a whole at least trying to up their authenticity. Sure, it may never happen for 90% of the SCA, but everyone is looking for something different.

Actually, I think it is the other way around.

I think 90% is, at some level, whether great or small, working to improve. It is that hardcore 10% of "THIS IS AN ATTEMPT AND ALL I'M REQUIRED TO DO" guys that are the problem.

Remember, this group has people of all skill levels and time levels.. the guy that has been in for 20 years might be right next to the guy who LITERALLY started last week.

But in the close to 15 years I have been involved, I have seen a slow, but relatively steady, progression towards "better". WIth the exception of the aformentioned 10%.

Maeryk

[Winterfell]

Wow! Now we need to get that in more kingdoms.

[jester]

Gosh! The SCA allows jousting? I don't see that anywhere in the rules.

[Siggy]

Experimental equestrian rules. Like the sidesword experiment it can be cancelled or "suspended" at a whim.

Siggy

[jester]

Bitter, un-neccesary, and largely irrelevant post deleted.

[Maeryk]

I respectfully, but strongly, disagree with you. The 'lowest common denominator' (LCD) folks have the virtue of not attempting to force everyone to play the game their way. The folks that know the one true way the game should be played are the ones that stand on the tracks. A selection of quotes (taken completely out of context) from a Kingdom Earl Marshal:

Dude.. you seriously have a one-track mind when it comes to this stuff. (Not that that is a bad thing). I was not looking merely at combat.. I was looking overall.. at quality and materials of armor, of softkits, of camps and camping kit, of classes being taught in actual "period" crafts and skills, rather than in "how to make modern X look period" , etc.

True.. in combat specifically we may not be "authentic" but not only have we never been, we have never PRETENDED to be.

Maeryk

[jester]

I respectfully, but strongly, disagree with you. The 'lowest common denominator' (LCD) folks have the virtue of not attempting to force everyone to play the game their way. The folks that know the one true way the game should be played are the ones that stand on the tracks. A selection of quotes (taken completely out of context) from a Kingdom Earl Marshal:

Dude.. you seriously have a one-track mind when it comes to this stuff. (Not that that is a bad thing). I was not looking merely at combat.. I was looking overall.. at quality and materials of armor, of softkits, of camps and camping kit, of classes being taught in actual "period" crafts and skills, rather than in "how to make modern X look period" , etc.

True.. in combat specifically we may not be "authentic" but not only have we never been, we have never PRETENDED to be.

Maeryk

Since the thread was talking about jousting I think my monomaniacal response is understandable. In the other matters, I completely agree with you. Some of the stuff that people are doing is absolutely amazing.

[Glen K]

Now I know you hard-core Living History and real-jouster folks will scoff at the fake styrofoam lances and other anachronisms.

Part of me, purely on principle, does have to do so.

On the other hand, NO group out there is doing actual jousting like they did in the day. Some of them use solid poles (I believe of pine and of an ahistorical shape and diameter), some of them use breakaways (heck, even when I jousted that's what we used, though you had to hit pretty hard for the 'break' to happen), and some groups don't pad their lances but pad the hell out of their shields, which are the only allowed shots. Jeff and Gwen, please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe even Destrier's mechanics have been modified from the historical (if only marginally) for safety's sake (and there's nothing wrong with that...).

So, yes, it is kinda cool. I'm interested to see how far some of the better the equestrian folks take their kit with this. To be honest, somehow I'm more bothered by western saddles and nylon headstalls than I am foam-tipped lances...

[Mike F]

What about the King's Champions and realgas. . . reialgastect . . . rial . . . I spelled it wrong.

I don't see any padding on shileds or lances (and I've seen Lloyd's up close while we were talking about repairs.

Maeryk, I'll bow to your numbers. People do put forth some effort, to a greater or lesser extent. I'm 1/6 of my shire's usual population, and a few of them are pretty "I'm not having fun in my game, so I have to quit being an officer and vote to disband the shire because I can't make four reports a year."

I'm just glad how everyone tries around me. Except those who don't. I have no right to say anything about authenticity, seeing as how my surcoat is trigger, but so long as people at least try.

As far as the jousting goes, I'd be glad to see anything done. Horses are a major discrepancy between the SCA and more accurate medieval portrayals. That being said, Agincourt-era English were footmen anyway, so no effect on me.

[Rod Walker]

On the other hand, NO group out there is doing actual jousting like they did in the day. Some of them use solid poles (I believe of pine and of an ahistorical shape and diameter), some of them use breakaways (heck, even when I jousted that's what we used, though you had to hit pretty hard for the 'break' to happen), and some groups don't pad their lances but pad the hell out of their shields, which are the only allowed shots. Jeff and Gwen, please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe even Destrier's mechanics have been modified from the historical (if only marginally) for safety's sake (and there's nothing wrong with that...).

So, yes, it is kinda cool. I'm interested to see how far some of the better the equestrian folks take their kit with this. To be honest, somehow I'm more bothered by western saddles and nylon headstalls than I am foam-tipped lances...

If you are doing 16th century styles of joust than in some of those it is perfectly period to use 'breakaway' lances. Solid lances were not used all the time and in fact were used in only a select few joust styles.

[Glen K]

If you are doing 16th century styles of joust than in some of those it is perfectly period to use 'breakaway' lances. Solid lances were not used all the time and in fact were used in only a select few joust styles.

Correct, but the style and type of breakaway lances used today are completely different from those that (we believe) they were using in that time. The ones they used were specially constructed by craftsmen. To make perfect replicas to use each pass in modern times would be incredibly cost-prohibitive. They were nobles, they did't have such financial worries!

[Black Swan Designs]

Jeff and Gwen, please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe even Destrier's mechanics have been modified from the historical (if only marginally) for safety's sake

Yup, absolutely correct, balsa tipped lances are not historical and that's why there's a whole lot of grumbling among the ranks about moving to solid lances and frogmouth helmets for 15th C. jousting. (Which prospect scares me witless I might add!) I think Toby and Jeff started the grumbling but it's pretty widespread now among those who care about trying to recreate history with as few compromises as possible.

Gwen

(Edited because my initial phrasing sounded more contentious than was intended. )

[Wil]

http://www.chiptalbert.com/photo-album/ ... es/028.htm

Backed the URL up a bit, and found pics of a third jouster, who looks to have a pretty decent 13th century kit. I really hope this takes off, once it gets out of the experimental stage they can start experimenting with sleeker lance designs etc.

~Wil

[JJ Shred]

That's a pretty lady jousting there. Any idea where/what kingdom that is? Logan Silveraxe is written on the gentleman's lance, doesn't he post here?

[Charlotte J]

(Which prospect scares me witless I might add!)

I'm with you, Gwen.

There's some things I just don't think we should do. People who make and use period makeups don't use the lead bases that they used - that'd just be stupidity. And wouldn't it be fun to reenact a medieval childbirth? So, one out of every five women died, the odds are still with you.

Anyway, I'm very pro-authenticity, even to the point of discomfort at times, but not to the point of dangerous.

[Rod Walker]

Jeff and Gwen, please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe even Destrier's mechanics have been modified from the historical (if only marginally) for safety's sake

Yup, absolutely correct, balsa tipped lances are not historical and that's why there's a whole lot of grumbling among the ranks about moving to solid lances and frogmouth helmets for 15th C. jousting. (Which prospect scares me witless I might add!) I think Toby and Jeff started the grumbling but it's pretty widespread now among those who care about trying to recreate history with as few compromises as possible.

Gwen

(Edited because my initial phrasing sounded more contentious than was intended. )

I shot my email off as I was racing out the door to go to work. What I meant to say was that a lance made to break is perfectly period.

Balsa is a reasonably inexpensive and reasonably safe alternative. I am experimenting at the moment with pine tips in an attempt to arrive at a harder yet still safe hit.

Gwen: mmmmm, solid lances and frogmouth helms. Sounds like my idea of heaven

[Lloyd]

If I can find a way to afford a helm like Jeff has, I am all for the Great Bascinet.

Mike is correct, except for the balsa tip (a 12" piece capped with a copper cap at the end of our 11' dowel lance, which has a 14g SS vamplate taped in place and a 14g SS grapper that butts up against our shoulder to prevent the lance from moving therefore directing all of the force into the hit), we do not pad either lance or ourselves.



In the Realgestech style which we favor, a 8"x12" gridded metal grande gard (mantu de armes) is bolted onto the upper left side of our breastplate, in front of the left pauldron or spaulder, which must be struck first in order to score any points. After striking the grande gard, the jouster is free to attempt and pull the shot up into the helm. Points are awarded for striking the gard, breaking the balsa tip, breaking the lance, and unhorsing the opponent (this is World Championship Jousting Association rules).

[img]http://www.angelfire.com/wi2/xtremejousting/Double_Blowout.jpg[/img]

Glen, you are correct that to make perfectly period lances would be cost prohibitive. I would love to use period lances, but then I would have to charge a ton more for shows that I am doing and as for tournaments, I would have to find a bunch more sponsors. What people do not realize that all of those lances that we break, we have paid for. In turn, we have to charge the show producers a sufficient amount to cover all of our costs (including the lances), which with period lances would be much more than anyone would be willing to pay.

Gwen/Jeff, could you ask Toby while you are in the UK what the lances ran for the "Making of a Medieval Knight" as I know that each of those lances were handmade and perfectly "period" as I will see if I can get a local museum to cover the cost of making a few for historical demonstration purposes.

I don't have a problem using full wood lances, scored or unscored, with metal coronels as I trust my armour (and ALWAYS wear my BRAYETTE ), BUT, one of the reasons that we have gone to using balsa is the lack of shards.

Like King Henri II of France who died from a shard that went through his occularium and penetrated his brain through his eye, many jousters worry most about wood shards. I have pulled shards out of many pieces of my armour and have been happy that we are using the balsa to keep them out of my face. I have jousted with both and while I enjoy the hit I get with the full wood, Shane Adams and Rod have both rocked me just as hard with the wood/balsa combos.



Back in 2003, I was asked by the Prince of Northshield to come back to the SCA and help them with developing jousting. I came back, but for some reason, my 20 or so years of jousting and all that I learned during that period (most by trial and painful error) was pretty much ignored. IF the SCA is serious, they have plenty of groups that they can turn to for both advice, guidance, and training. To bad they won't do it.[/img]

[Charlotte J]

Back in 2003, I was asked by the Prince of Northshield to come back to the SCA and help them with developing jousting. I came back, but for some reason, my 20 or so years of jousting and all that I learned during that period (most by trial and painful error) was pretty much ignored. IF the SCA is serious, they have plenty of groups that they can turn to for both advice, guidance, and training. To bad they won't do it.

Huh. I was mildly active in Northshield equestrian at that time, and I don't remember hearing anything about it. Maybe it was an information issue?

*Mildly* being the key term. But info about something like that should have been spread about more by the Powers That Were (tm), to catch folks who'd lost interest in equestrian because of SCA issues. (Meaning, not your fault - it's their's). It's too bad.

[Lloyd]

Hi Charlotte,

I spent an entire weekend at Poor Man's Pensic (I think that was it, it was up in Black River Falls) talking to the equestrians and answering a lot of questions on jousting. To my knowledge, none of these were ever passed on.

I had also gone to an event in Oshkosh, but no one wanted to discuss "horsey issues", so finally, I told Leif that I was frustrated and remembered one of the main reasons I left the SCA in the first place.

I am hoping that the work that I am doing for the equestrian cirricula for the Schola St. George will find its way into the SCA (as there are a lot of cross members), if nothing else, we will bolster the ranks of the International Jousting Association (www.worldjousting.com) as Brian wants the classes to lead to IJA "authorization".

[jester]

True.. in combat specifically we may not be "authentic" but not only have we never been, we have never PRETENDED to be.

Maeryk

I've been thinking about this statement all night long and I finally figured out what bothers me about it.

SCA combat has no statement of intent, as such it is covered by the same basic statement of purpose that covers everything else in the Society. Isn't it somewhat dishonest (in general, not you personally) to hold combat to a different standard? It seems somewhat akin to saying "We expect everyone else to adhere to a high standard of authenticity, except for combat".

And in my particular case, I'm not talking about competitive combat, I'm talking about the study of medieval martial skills.

[Maeryk]

SCA combat has no statement of intent, as such it is covered by the same basic statement of purpose that covers everything else in the Society. Isn't it somewhat dishonest (in general, not you personally) to hold combat to a different standard? It seems somewhat akin to saying "We expect everyone else to adhere to a high standard of authenticity, except for combat".

Bingo!

Can you argue that SCA combat is, or ever _HAS_ been "the study of medieval combat skills"? Our entire fight system is not based on a medieval model, our weapons are only loosely based on something we have documentation of being used _once_, etc etc.

our fight system, more than anything else, is a system for determining government. Nothing more. Neither stated, nor I think, honestly implied.

I could see your argument(s) were it ever stated that "SCA Combat is an attempt to recreate the combat of the middle ages".. but it _CLEARLY_ is not. It is a modern, western martial art that has evolved from motorcycle helmets and trash can lids to some of the nicest "sport" armor currently made. But a rose by any other name...

Maeryk

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

I was at the Collegium last year in Shattered Crystal and was able to watch this up close. Count Pieter was amongst those jousting. I was just authorizing that day, and was not ready to authorize at the advanced level, so I just watched. It was a fun time. There was also horseback combat (with boffer weapons) where the object was to knock a crest off the top of the opponents head. Watched my lady kickin butt and having fun... Met the gentles who are spearheading it. Great folks.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

I remember when the talks first started in Meridies about jousting. One of my good friends was told to stand there in heavy armor as another took a lance (they were originally talking about styrofoam inside cardboard tubes and slitting them to break) and RAN at him as hard as he could to see what kind of impact the charging horses would have. He shrugged it off and it was no problem. I believe that there is talk about people making their own lances so that they would be able to paint them accordingly. The lady in the greathelm in the first picture I believe is Lady Sevana from somewhere around Atlanta, GA (seen her at many events but not sure of group). The nice part about jousting is that chain is legal as long as it is covering your face so some people that are doing earlier personas have open faced helms with chain on them. These people have really poured a lot of work into this. I have heard some of them asking about custom horse barding (armour) as they want to look even better. It should be fun to train a horst to charge with that on . I have only heard two things that are approaching "bad". DISCLAIMER: I do not mean to insult anyone, these are people's opinion. One is that most of the people that do equestrian have never done combat before, so they tend to feel it more than the stick jocks who started and were shrugging off blows. The other problem I saw at Castle Wars was that some people were having problems maintaining the speed of a "charge" (I think they are limited to a canter ). They tended to get up close and then "push" the lance at each other. The only other logistical problem I heard about was that the crests used in combat were having a problem of staying on with magnets and so they would fall off without anyone hitting them if the rider was jostled too much.

[jester]

SCA combat has no statement of intent, as such it is covered by the same basic statement of purpose that covers everything else in the Society. Isn't it somewhat dishonest (in general, not you personally) to hold combat to a different standard? It seems somewhat akin to saying "We expect everyone else to adhere to a high standard of authenticity, except for combat".

Bingo!

Can you argue that SCA combat is, or ever _HAS_ been "the study of medieval combat skills"? Our entire fight system is not based on a medieval model, our weapons are only loosely based on something we have documentation of being used _once_, etc etc.

our fight system, more than anything else, is a system for determining government. Nothing more. Neither stated, nor I think, honestly implied.

I could see your argument(s) were it ever stated that "SCA Combat is an attempt to recreate the combat of the middle ages".. but it _CLEARLY_ is not. It is a modern, western martial art that has evolved from motorcycle helmets and trash can lids to some of the nicest "sport" armor currently made. But a rose by any other name...

Maeryk

I can argue that point and I'll send you a pm with my points.

Anything else I say on this subject is just going to be sour grapes. So I'm walking away from the topic.

[Lloyd]

I remember when the talks first started in Meridies about jousting. One of my good friends was told to stand there in heavy armor as another took a lance (they were originally talking about styrofoam inside cardboard tubes and slitting them to break) and RAN at him as hard as he could to see what kind of impact the charging horses would have. He shrugged it off and it was no problem.

Not exactly the same as getting hit with a combined speed of more than 40mph with more than 1800lbs of horse backing it up (remember - mass x acceleration = force!). I wear a 14g SS breastplate that I am forever beating very large and impressive dents out of.



But, I am glad that the SCA has finally decided to take the plunge. Jousting can be done safely. I know that I have done literally thousands of joust passes without getting hurt, with only a few that I did. I really would like the SCA Equestrian Marshall to reach out to some of the groups that have been doing this for a long time and ask for assistance. It will greatly speed up the process of getting SCA jousting "off the ground".

[Robert P. Norwalt]

I don't think that's an SCA event? The folks in the background are in Civey's.

[Lloyd]

No, Silverleaf Renaissance Faire (for 3 of the pics) and the Sonora International Jousting Championships for the other (in two of my posts).

[JJ Shred]

Who is this fellow? Not only does he have a nice Mac bible helm, it looks like one of Wendy's gambesons, and that horse is beautiful! It looks to be at least half Friesian, is this guy from Texas?

[img]http://www.chiptalbert.com/photo-album/SCA/sequoyah-demo/page2/images/s-demo-029.jpg[/img]

[JJ Shred]

p.s. Pieter is a good rider and a gentleman above and beyond any other I have ever met. I certainly can believe he has carried this to a certain extent beyond when I used to ride with him. I can also certainly say I look forward to the day I can break lances against/with him, because even if losing it would carry no shame to be bested by such a gentleman as he!

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

Lloyd,

I'll ask Toby if he knows. Mike Loades may be at the tournament next week though, and he surely would. Steve Mallett was pretty involved with the show too, working for Janet at the time, so he knows some of the details about the lances. Toby said previously that the lances were of Lime wood, and Mike confirmed that. Best American equivalent is basswood. Pretty soft, light and breaks cleanly, which was an issue for the show, due to Health and Safety issues. Some of the lances I've seen in England and two I examined at Dover Castle could have been of this wood.

I wonder how far the SCA will be able to take jousting. In considering the regular combat, it appears to me that an attempt has been made to get it to be 'idiot-proof' (for lack of a better term --no offense intended), which seems to have been achieved with foot combat. But throw a pair of horses in the mix and I don't know if the same thing can be accomplished with SCA jousting beyond what's on the books already (ie. the foam lances, etc.). For instance, I don't foresee the SCA will get to the point of using the frangible 3' balsa ends. There's a lot of potential for injury without pretty darned good armour.

Equestrian pursuits are inherently dangerous, jousting especially so, and I wonder if the SCA as a whole is willing to accept the risk, when the SCA encourages pretty much anyone to participate after jumping through only a couple of hoops. Then there's the expense of it. Lots to think about. We'll see...

I'm looking foward to "kickin' butt" next week with Toby and Steve. I think we have the strongest team, given that Toby and Steve were 2nd and 3rd at the individuals last time. Let's hope the 'Order of the Crescent' rocks!

"Los en Croissant!"

[Black Swan Designs]

......and I hope they not only kick butt, but that they are whole enough at the end to take names.

Gwen

[JJ Shred]

Oh relax, Gwen - it's not that far to the ground, plus Jeff has some of the nicest armour around, as long as he remembers to let his body take the fall and not throw his arms out which I'm sure he is aware of. Remember we boys like to play rough!!! He'll be just fine.

[Lloyd]

Thanks, Jeff, with you and Toby, I know you guys will kick butt (but watch out, Fred Pireaux is FIRED UP!).

I remember you posted about basswood on the IJA forum, but I have been unable to find it in sufficient length. Like I posted above, I am having about 20 IJA style bases made up and I had planned on trying them out with pine dowels, balsa dowels. and (now) basswood dowels.

I am really looking forward to doing more IJA style jousting (at least my poor old bones are ), because it hasn't been falling to the ground that injured me - its been me own lance!

Good luck, Jeff, Break a Lance Brother and email me when you get back with all the juicy details!