Finished my riveted maille standard (collar)

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:49 am

So I have been working on improving my 15th century archer kit for Lord Grey's Retinue. By last fall I finished my jack and started my riveted maille standard but didn't get it done before the fall events. I pulled it out 3 weeks ago and got to work.

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/images/armory/maille_standard/PICT0010.jpg[/img]

Ok here are the details. It has about 2400 9mm ForthÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Armory do it yourself rings in it. It is alternating rows of solid and riveted links. I used expanding row construction, the first 7 rows are straight and starting at 8/9 they expand having a total of 19 rows. The top row was about 29 inches fully stretched out. I have a 17 1/2 inch neck and I didn't want the rings stretched out when I wear it so I made it big.

I made a 20 inch lightly padded linen collar and hand quilted it, it was about 18 1/2 inches after seem allowance and quilting. It over laps about 1/2 and inch when closed comfortable tight over my neck. I then evenly laid out the top of the maille standard to the top of the linen collar and whip stitched the maille to the linen with a thick waxed linen thread to hold them together to add the leather to the top. I then cut my leather top and doubled it over and pre punched holes with a leather awl. I then used thick waxed linen thread and did a running stitch to hold the leather down over the linen collar and maille. I then closed the bottom 3 rows to keep them from laying open when wearing it.

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/images/armory/maille_standard/PICT0007.jpg[/img]

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/images/armory/maille_standard/PICT0008.jpg[/img]

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/images/armory/maille_standard/PICT0004.jpg[/img]

To finish it I am waiting on some brass "D" buckles from Guakler. I will hand stitch them onto some leather and stitch the leather straps over the maille. The opening will over lap about 1/2 an inch in the back preventing a gap.

The standard is very comfortable to wear and will look good this weekend with my kit at MTA.

Magmaforge · Post by **Magmaforge** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:09 am

most impressive.
-Mag

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:13 am

Very nice. I gotta do the same thing. However, I am thinking of buying the HE standard.

Tim

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:15 am

Great job!....Otto

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:20 am

Timothy_D_Finkas wrote:Very nice. I gotta do the same thing. However, I am thinking of buying the HE standard.

I tried one on and it was too small for me. Jeff told me they will have loose rings this year so you can modify the collar but I already started mine. Also the H.E. standard is done in triangles and I wanted expanding row construction for that real full look. Just my picky preferences :wink:

I tell you though I couldn't beat that $75 price tag; I have 60 hours invested in mine.

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:24 am

Hello All,

Nice work James.

I picked up one of the HE (GDFB) standards and I'm quite happy with it. I too wanted a finishing touch to my 1388 Scottish Archer.

I ran my padding to match the size of the standard as I wear it for neck protection when working with steel.

Here is how I finished mine: The buckles are a reproduction of a 14th century style buckle from Raymond the Quiet.

[img]http://www.arador.com/discforums/uploads/post-15-1098938299.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.arador.com/discforums/uploads/post-15-1098938770.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.arador.com/discforums/uploads/post-15-1098938854.jpg[/img]

I left the bottom unattached, but after having a rondel dagger pressed into my neck during a class on armoured combat I'm going to sew the bottom to the quilted padding ( canvas grade linen and 3 layers of heavy wool blanketing). It makes it much harder for somebody to stab you in the neck...

Cheers,

David Teague :wink:

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:32 pm

Very nice! I intend to do one myself, as I purchased both sizes of rings from Historic Enterprises some time ago. I was going to do the neck in the smaller size, and the mantle with the larger size rings.
Someday.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:42 pm

David

Thanks for sharing the pics, looks good. As to the bottom edge I plan on my standard being under my jack so no exposed bottom :wink:

Bascot

I was thinking of making a copy of the standard in AAotMK except I believe the top links are 4mm or 5mm and 8mm is the smallest available rings I know of, if I had a shop I may have just made my own. So instead I did what I did to get the same look you see in English effigies.

Erik D. Schmid · Post by **Erik D. Schmid** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:10 pm

James,

The collar links of that standard are around 3mm ID. and made from wire having a thickness of 0.85mm - 0.90mm. The mantle links are made of the same thickness of wire only flattened and having a slightly larger ID. of around 4.5mm.

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:21 pm

To any marshalls out there. Would this be legal for SCA fighting as it is heavy chain with padding touching the neck and going down far enough to cover the collarbone notch (I live in Meridies)? If I am not mistaken both for looks and ease of wear, you overlap over the back of your neck (aka spine)? What does that do for the pooling of the maille on your back?

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:22 pm

Wow smaller than I remembered! Thanks for the info Erik.

I think for my next maille project (maybe in fall) I will make a pair of maille shorts like you see some archers wearing in period art. Erik do you know of any surviving pair with a cod piece? I saw a pair of solid German maille shorts in the Philly Museum 2 weeks ago (looked like 3mm too) but I assumed that was for a man in a full German harness.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:24 pm

Oswyn

You could add a ridged leather collar between the linen and maille to make it legal. I have thought about that myself :wink:

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:20 pm

Hello James,

Here is a picture from last year of my 1388 Scottish Archer persona...
since this photo:

I've replaced the butted mail with a riveted shirt and standard, (I wear my standard over my sleeveless jack.)

I have a full sleeve aketon that I can wear instead of the 1/2 sleeve that I have on under the mail.

and I do have a simple sallet that I wasn't wearing at the time.

[img]http://www.arador.com/discforums/uploads/post-14-1087372365.jpg[/img]

I made the mail, shoes,the 1/2 sleeve aketon, the sleeveless jack, all the leather items, self nock arrows, the scabbard for the custom sword, and the buckler...

What do you think?

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:01 pm

Very Nice both James and David.

It will be good to see more supplemental mail, and haubergeons in late medieval reenactment - they seem to be more commonplace than many imagine, almost a gerneral requirement.

I am told there are dozens of those sorts of shorts extant James, and the MET has some as well as Philly.

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:11 pm

chef de chambre wrote:Very Nice both James and David.

It will be good to see more supplemental mail, and haubergeons in late medieval reenactment - they seem to be more commonplace than many imagine, almost a gerneral requirement.

I am told there are dozens of those sorts of shorts extant James, and the MET has some as well as Philly.

I hear ya Chef.

The problem is that the new flat ring rivetted amil has pretty much rendered the old butted and round rivetted stuff obsolete. The new, and great looking stuff is EXPENSIVE though. A good haubergeon costs, what, $800-$1000? That's a lot to bite off no matter how you chew it! I am trying to get a haubergeon from HE now (of they can get one in my size), and I KNOW it's gonna cost.

BTW, is it usual for haubergeons to be worn under jacks? Are they ever worn over an arming doublet only?

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:13 pm

David looking good. Have seen you post that image before and I like it, you seem to be like myself always upgrading.

Chef do you know if any specifically have a codpiece?

Erik D. Schmid · Post by **Erik D. Schmid** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:16 pm

James,

I know of none that have a codpiece. All of the ones I have seen have a simple bulge for the jewels.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:25 pm

James B. wrote:David looking good. Have seen you post that image before and I like it, you seem to be like myself always upgrading.

Chef do you know if any specifically have a codpiece?

Cod flap (as I call it) - not a sculpted codpiece - precisely what Erik describes. Codpiece conjures images of stuffed and shaped monstrosities of the 16th century.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:28 pm

Thanks guys. You know the more I think about it I don't think I would wear them long term anyway, think about sitting on maille on a wood seat for a while. You wood will get messed up and your butt will have maille impression on it :shock:

Strongbow I feel you pain, I want one of those HE/GDFB 8mm shirts to finish off the kit too, but it sure does cost a pretty penny. As to imagery I don't recall seeing guys in just maille, they seem to always have a brig or a jack on over it. The good news is there is an ordinance calling for a 10 layer no sleeve jack for over maille.

Alec · Post by **Alec** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:33 pm

Beautiful work!!!

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:33 pm

Well at least that will make the Jack easier to make!

Who issued that ordinance? Do you have a reference?

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:39 pm

http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/dragons_1.phtml

Check out issue 3, I think the referance is in there.

Ceramite · Post by **Ceramite** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:38 pm

Great work all three of you!! Thanks for the detailed description and great pics of your project James!!!

60 hours.. EEE.. i think thats more time then i studied in my whole 5 years of college MuhHAAHHA

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:58 pm

James B. wrote:Thanks guys. You know the more I think about it I don't think I would wear them long term anyway, think about sitting on maille on a wood seat for a while. You wood will get messed up and your butt will have maille impression on it

Strongbow I feel you pain, I want one of those HE/GDFB 8mm shirts to finish off the kit too, but it sure does cost a pretty penny. As to imagery I don't recall seeing guys in just maille, they seem to always have a brig or a jack on over it. The good news is there is an ordinance calling for a 10 layer no sleeve jack for over maille.

Actually James, the Coventry Leet book specifies either a jack and sallet, or a haubergorn and sallet as armour aceptable to fulfil the householders obligation, so there is evidence for haubergeons being worn in the 15th century, in an English context. Gestrons (a form of hauberk) appear with reasonable frequency as well.

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:19 pm

chef de chambre wrote:Actually James, the Coventry Leet book specifies either a jack and sallet, or a haubergorn and sallet as armour aceptable to fulfil the householders obligation, so there is evidence for haubergeons being worn in the 15th century, in an English context. Gestrons (a form of hauberk) appear with reasonable frequency as well.

Thanks Chef!

If I can get that haubergeon, then I can be correct before I finish the jack. That's good news at least.

If I can impose... what is a gestron exactly?

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:17 am

Nice armourcake, all of you! The pics alone are a tutorial for making mail standards. I'm going through this and taking notes.

Oswyn, I'd thought the standard (no pun intended) for the safety gorget was that it provide rigid protection. Reinforcing the lining with P-word plates would get the job done, though. That's pretty much always the way I'm building concealed safety gorgets of this type, using pretty much the technology of a midget Coat of Plates.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:11 pm

chef de chambre wrote:Actually James, the Coventry Leet book specifies either a jack and sallet, or a haubergorn and sallet as armour aceptable to fulfil the householders obligation, so there is evidence for haubergeons being worn in the 15th century, in an English context. Gestrons (a form of hauberk) appear with reasonable frequency as well.

Good to know thanks Chef. I will have to look that up.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:03 pm

Strongbow wrote:
chef de chambre wrote:Actually James, the Coventry Leet book specifies either a jack and sallet, or a haubergorn and sallet as armour aceptable to fulfil the householders obligation, so there is evidence for haubergeons being worn in the 15th century, in an English context. Gestrons (a form of hauberk) appear with reasonable frequency as well.

Thanks Chef!

If I can get that haubergeon, then I can be correct before I finish the jack. That's good news at least.

If I can impose... what is a gestron exactly?

Hi Stongbow,

A gestron is the older Middle English word for a mail defence, considering the word, some people think it comes from jazzarint. By the 15th century, it has come to mean a pretty spiffy primary defence, consisting on a mail hauberk/haubergeon, completely covered, with integral padding, and as far as I have been able to determine, almost invariably covered with a rich fabric, like a brigandine - damask, fustian, velvet I've come across so far. Think of it like a mail brigandine, in concept.

They seem to have been a lightweight, comfortable defence with the same general purpose as the much more numerous brigandine (%80+ of the armur listed in the 1481 expedition to Scotland amongst John Howards men are brigandines and supplementary defences - about 5-7% are gestrons). John Howard bought at least one for himself.