landsknecht armour?

Archie Zietman · Post by **Archie Zietman** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:39 am

Hello.
Does anyone have any pictures of a 16th century Landsknecht soldier?
Thanks,
Archie

Hew · Post by **Hew** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:44 pm

Try these yet?
http://www.st-max.org/todesengel_woodcuts.htm

http://www.landsknecht.com/html/armoury.html

http://www.landsknecht.com/html/art_gallery.html

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:24 pm

I don't have a way to post pictures of my armour here right now. If you e-mail me at THEKarlMarx@cs.com I'll be glad to send a picture that way. I origianlly copied the "Hauptmann, Swabian League" from Osprey MAA384 Armies of the German Peassants' War 1524-26. It seems now that this picture may not have been based on an original but rather a Valerian Armory catalog shot....

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:33 pm

http://www.waldryk.com/body/pickmensbreastplate.htm

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:23 am

http://www.varmouries.com/vcat_10.html

Although it looks nice, and I wouldn't throw them off the field, the black&white armour may not be quite right for Landsknecht.

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:10 am

Hmmm, I've seen black and white suits in every book I've read about landsknechts...

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:35 am

Hmmm, I've seen black and white suits in every book I've read about landsknechts...

Yup.. me too.

And _not_ every LK suit I have seen in woodcut or such includes leg protection..

Maeryk

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:07 pm

http://www.varmouries.com/lan_01.html

This is what I'm talking about as black&white or
Reiter armour. I have only seen this as Landsknecht armour in reproductions such as the above site and the Swiss Army Museum. I have many woodcuts from The Triumph on but I'm not recognizing any raised sections that might be this two-tone style. I would not mind you all showing me that I'm wrong since I do like the look.

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:51 pm

We are having a similar discution over on Arador about B&W armour and the Landsknechten. I'm yet unconvienced that the Landsknecht wore B&W, in my research so far it looks that B&W was mostly used by city and town militias. Many B&W helmets and other pieces of the armour are embossed with the crest or symbol of the town or city they were used in. A Landsknecht who had to supply his own armour (more often then not) would not have had access to this style of armour. Add to this that by the time B&W was in use (late 1550's) the Landsknechten were fadeing away, being replaced by these same militias. You would think with the number of people who claim that the Landsknechten wore B&W armour there would be a large easy to find body of evidence out there. But in all my research I have yet to find a single woodcut, painting, etc that shows this. If you have one, I would love to see it or any other evidence.

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:19 pm

Karl Helweg wrote:I have many woodcuts from The Triumph on but I'm not recognizing any raised sections that might be this two-tone style. I would not mind you all showing me that I'm wrong since I do like the look.

Hi Karl,

The artwork in "The Triumph" was done in around 1516, many years before the B&W armour style came to being (1550's). You will not find any B&W armour in "The Triumph".

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:48 pm

Jason, I didn't mean to say that I didn't have and have already checked other later Landsknecht woodcuts and tapestries. The only one that looks like it might have the two-tone effect is on the Hauptmann's breastplate (but not pauldrons or tassets) in Jost Amman's much used "Mustering the Landsknechts" woodcut. Jost Amman was 1539-91 and did most of his work in 50's-60's.

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:18 pm

Hi Karl,

Sorry, my mistake. :oops:

Is it this one here that you sent me?

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/vie ... =Hauptmann

Too bad his sash covers the breastplate, but I agree with you that this does not appear to be a B&W suit. The curved embossing at the top of the breast plate was very popular at this time but it is not limited to just B&W armour. Here are some examples of the style on non-B&W armour.

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/vie ... id=18673_G
http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/vie ... east_anime
http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/vie ... 6th&id=L41

I think a better canidate for possible B&W armour would be this one of a Landsknecht musterung. Too bad the details are so hard to see, althought the very high contrast of the style should be very easy to see.

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/vie ... =Mustering

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:39 pm

Jason, the last print that you just posted, http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... af9a297316
(on my clearer copy) shows a raised breast plate ridge which could be two toned. The tassets and pauldrons had no such rasing though.

If I can figure this burner out I'll try and copy my newest disc for you. What was your snail-mail again (e-mail me at THEKarlMarx@cs.com)?

Found a book from Osprey, Essential 47 The French Religious Wars 1562-1598, that talks about Lansknechts and Reiter quite a bit. There are som small scale batlte prints showing distinct Landsknecht units in pulderhose and such. The way it talks about the rarely covered Reiter makes it sound like there was a 2-1 exchange rate for Reitesr to a Landsknecht when the Saxons and such sent military aid to the French Protestants. It also mentions that the Reiter pistols proved themselves against traditional French knights. My other books mentioning Reiter and their black&white armour don't go into specifics a lot. Good book to pick up. It mentions Landsknechts (and Swiss Pikeman) being used through the 1590s.

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:57 pm

Hi Karl,

That is very interesting. I'm in the process of reading up on Germany at the end of the 16th century to see if I can find anything on the end of the Landsknecht that might show some light on the matter.

The tassets and pauldrons had no such rasing though.

Yes this is why I'm more inclined to thing that it is not B&W that is being depicted. Most of the B&W armour I have seen are very much matched including the helmet, breastplate, tassets and pauldrons (or munions as the case may be). I will send you an email tonight. Thanks,

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:03 pm

Jason, it sound like we agree that we just haven't found a black&white Landsknecht armour yet. It would be nice looking but I get the idea that it would have been like an Army infantryman wanting to wear Air Force blues into combat. They theoretically could have but just wouldn't have wanted to wear it.

Back to the original idea here: who all out there in e-land actually owns and fights as a Landsknecht? Can you all please post photos?

(Anyone here going to Fools' War next weekend?)

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:07 pm

Back to the original idea here: who all out there in e-land actually owns and fights as a Landsknecht? Can you all please post photos?

Me.. but my dress outfit is a very VERY simple breastplate (no tassets) and sallet.. and a baldric with the apostles and a burgundian matchlock.

My combat armor is not even vaguely "correct".. it is much more SCA sport armour.. but it is pretty close, sorta, to a picture i got from Jason at one point that I can now not find. :roll:

Maeryk

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:45 pm

Maeryk, are you just going to tease us or are you going to post pictures?

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:36 pm

Maeryk, are you just going to tease us or are you going to post pictures?

Hmm..well, just got back from EK coronation.. and I _DO_ have my court-garb LK stuff on.. and I _COULD_ Drag the dress stuff off the wall and suit up..

http://www.ladyacreations.com/maeryk/fullarmorwgonne2-sm.JPG

Theres a taster.. I think its too damn big to post in the forum, but I will have full size versions available on the site as soon as I get them uploaded.

Maeryk

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:18 am

Cool taste. What's the specs on the matchlock? I found one of John Buck's in a flea market (no kidding) but rarely get to shoot it or even take it out.

I'll have to try and take some pictures at Fools' War next weekend. This time, before I fight all day.

Does anyone out there use or trust a chain Bishop's Mantel for SCA fighting?

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:39 pm

Thanks! It's a .56 cal matchlock, the one Syke's carries as "the Burgundian".

Thats not SCA combat armor.. way too thin.. but I _DO_ have a Bishops Mantle and a bevoir for it.. they were just packed away where I couldnt get them (they don't hang on the wall.. the other stuff does) when the photos were being taken.

Maeryk

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:29 pm

Here is my very bad costume and kind of a mishmash of armour. I don't fight in it, just did some Ren fairs.

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/vie ... 99_veltin1

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:42 pm

Jason Grimes wrote:The artwork in "The Triumph" was done in around 1516, many years before the B&W armour style came to being (1550's). You will not find any B&W armour in "The Triumph".

I think it came around a little earlier than that, Jason. I was just looking in my Wallace catalog and found these examples:

A29, Otto Heinrich, Count Palatine of the Rhine B&W suit, dated 1532-1536 (Made by Hans Ringler in Nuremberg, and is Otto's 'middle-aged' heavy suit)

A40, B&W half-armour for an officer of Landsknechts c1540 (burgeonet, munions, etc) Nuremberg guild stamp

Curiously, the A82 sallet (with the 'lion' face) has "three parallelstripes of white and black emulating fluting". Nuremberg, c1500.

A181, a falling buff burgeonet (c1540 also Ringler, Nuremberg) might be considered a B&W, although at the high end.

Perhaps the B&W harness originated in Nuremberg? (3 examples isn't enough to go on)

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:47 pm

Hi Alcyoneus,

You wouldn't have any of these pictures scanned would you? :twisted:

I think Otto heinrich's armour is in A&AMK? If it is the one I'm thinking about, I wouldn't call it B&W. I would classify it as blackened Maximillian and the normally white parts are gilded on this suit. I should have said that B&W didn't become popular until the 1550's, as you can alway find precursor styles and early adaptations.

There is an excellent example of a black and white Maximillian suit in the Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien from around 1536. But again these are very different from the B&W styles of the late 16th century.

Alcyoneus wrote:
Perhaps the B&W harness originated in Nuremberg? (3 examples isn't enough to go on)

It's very possible.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:55 am

Sorry, no scanner at the moment.

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:56 am

Hey Alcyoneus,

I just checked my copy of the Kunsthistorisches Museum catalog to take another look at the blackened Maximillian suit. Interesting enough it was made by H. Ringler of Nurnberg. Also this is the only suit of Maximillian armour that I have seen that has finger gaunlets associated with it instead of mitten gauntlets. Although I suspect that they do not belong to the suit. Maybe this Hans Ringler was the origionator of the B&W style?

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:06 am

Jason, nice kit. Do you have an SCA kit?

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:15 am

Jason Grimes wrote:Hey Alcyoneus,

I just checked my copy of the Kunsthistorisches Museum catalog to take another look at the blackened Maximillian suit. Interesting enough it was made by H. Ringler of Nurnberg. Maybe this Hans Ringler was the originator of the B&W style?

You wouldn't have any of these pictures scanned would you? ;-)

Sounds possible. Don't you just love this place?

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:49 pm

Karl Helweg wrote:Jason, nice kit. Do you have an SCA kit?

Thanks Karl,

No, I've never been too interested in the SCA, I'm more of a LH guy.

Although I did briefly join in 1985 but didn't persue it. My kit is still in limbo, one of these years I will get up enough energy and start building a decent one.

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:52 pm

Alcyoneus wrote: You wouldn't have any of these pictures scanned would you?

I will scan it in tonight.

Alcyoneus wrote:
Sounds possible. Don't you just love this place?

Yes!

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:19 am

Hi Alcyoneus,

Here is the picture of the armour from the Kunsthistorisches Museum...

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/vie ... d=maxbandw

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