Update on Black Swan Design's Arming Doublet

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:54 pm

As you know, some months ago we began designing and testing an arming doublet pattern for use under 15th C. plate armour. We've made up several versions during this process, and each version is tested and refined and the patterns revised before we try another round of testing. Although the last design revision got rave reviews, 2 weeks ago I decided I wanted to test the pattern in a real working environment prior to release. Well, the Royal Armouries Easter Jousts are over and the final verdict is in! 2 members of Destrier and one member of the Order of the Crescent have our arming doublets and all 3 report they work fabulously. After 4 days of jousting and an extra day of tournament activities, Steve Mallet (Horse Master for Destrier and member of the Order of the Crescent) says he's never had an arming doublet that worked as well. Dominic Sewell (Chairman of Destrier and Team Captain) said his is "perfect". Will West, (Destrier member and owner of the Englyshe Plate Armourie) and Jeffrey Hedgecock (Historic Arms and Armour) had some of the most critical demands during the design process and both have judged the design "fantastic" as well. Comments an input from armourers and men who are actually wearing and using these doublets make me confident that this design not only works in theory, it works in practice.

I'll post photos shortly, and we'll begin production on these as soon as I get back to the US. Watch our website for details, as they will be added shortly after my return.

Thanks!

Gwen
Black Swan Designs

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:20 pm

Methinks you'll sell quite a few of these rascals. Thanks for filling a great need....Otto

Guy Dawkins · Post by **Guy Dawkins** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:42 pm

Ah! So now you can turn your attention to the 14th century arming cotte!
:wink:

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:04 pm

Yup.

Gwen

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:11 pm

I should add that you shouldn't look for an "arming cotte" from me. It'll be another "arming coat" plain and simple. I know "cotte" is the fashionable, chichi term so in vogue right now, but I'll be sticking with the simple modern term. Look for a "14th C. arming doublet with grande asiette sleeve" in the next couple of months.

Gwen

Guy Dawkins · Post by **Guy Dawkins** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:42 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:I should add that you shouldn't look for an "arming cotte" from me. It'll be another "arming coat" plain and simple. I know "cotte" is the fashionable, chichi term so in vogue right now, but I'll be sticking with the simple modern term. Look for a "14th C. arming doublet with grande asiette sleeve" in the next couple of months.

Gwen

Mom is French!

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:48 pm

I am still waiting for the pourpoint, actually, I am tired of hanging my legs off of either a belt or my leather arming vest.

Though I do need a new arming coat to as I plan to get rid of most of my straps and joust with "pointed" armour this season...

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:11 pm

Here's Steve Mallet (Order of the Crescent) and Dom Sewell (Destrier) in their Black Swan Designs arming doublets at the Royal Armouries "Sword of Honour" team jousting tournament.

Lloyd, the arming pourpoint is available from Mandrake Armory- http://www.mandrakearmory.com.

Gwen

Rod Walker · Post by **Rod Walker** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 pm

Oh, Oh Gwen!!!! What about a mid 16th century version :?:

Or would the version shown above be suitable.

There is next to no info available on 16thC arming clothes. The pattern I am using is from Janet Arnolds pattern book and even though the original is padded they are not sure whether it is actually an arming doublet, a fencing doublet or simply a fashionable padded doublet

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:30 pm

I don't think this pattern would do for 16th C. armour Rod, as I think the armour changed enough by the 16th C. to warrant a differently shaped arming garment. Honestly I don't know a lot about 16th C. armour, and only enough about 16th C. arming garments to get myself into trouble. :oops:

Gwen

Patton Lives · Post by **Patton Lives** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:33 pm

Looks fantastic,cant wait to see the 14th century version.

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:22 pm

Those Look Great! Another fine job Gwen. Any Idea of the price yet? ..Otto

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:02 pm

Thank you, Gwen. Very sweet of you. God bless.

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:08 am

There are going to be a couple of variables which affect price, such as fabric used and number of eyelets. The off the rack version will look very much like the one Dominic is wearing- red brushed cotton lined in linen with a number of pre-placed eyelets at a cost of $240. Natural coloured linen canvas or fustian is available for an additional $15, as are custom placed eyelets at $1.50/pr. I'm still trying to find red linen canvas or fustian to make these of, and will offer that option when and if I do find it. Points for the front and back lacing are supplied and included in the cost, arming points for harness are not.

What I discovered during development is that some of the guys did not want pre-placed eyelets, they wanted to put their own in. Will West was especially adamant on this point, and didn't want any eyelets at all save the ones to close the wrist. On the other hand, both Steve and Dom used a combination of pre-placed holes (in the skirt) and holes they made themselves in the sleeves and neck for their arm harnesses. This latter arrangement will be the setup on the off-the rack model.

We'll have a photo of a brand new arming doublet with detail shots on the website when we get back. I had several requests to see photos of the coats in a used condition rather than all pretty and new, and was fortunate enough to be able to take these. Steve wore his for 5 days and Dom has been wearing his for a month or 2. Steve wears no maille other than his maille skirt, and Dom wears a full shirt over his doublet and under his plate, which is why it's so dirty. Steve found the top holes of the pre-placed holes were perfectly placed for suspending his maille skirt, and used the bottom holes to suspend his legs. Dominic had his doublet longer and stitched the eyelets for his arm harness; Steve's was delivered immediately before the tournament, so there was no time to stitch his additional eyelets. Because he needed points on his upper arm from which to suspend his arm harness, we carefully opened holes in the fabric with an awl and inserted the laces. I was especially gratified to see that the fabric is so tough that the holes showed no stress after the tournament.

The fabric we're using is extremely tough and is therefore very stiff at first. As a matter of fact, when first delivered Steve was positive his didn't fit at all, and complained a lot. I told him it would take 1 day to break in, and asked him to persevere. By the second day he sheepishly admitted it had molded to his shape and fitted "perfectly-just like a glove". Boys. :roll:

Gwen

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:34 am

This is very cool. Can't wait to see the 14th century ones.

Question: Do these work for folks who don't have such svelt bodies?

Steve

DWolfhunter · Post by **DWolfhunter** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:39 am

NOw, HOwsa about a version for us...portly...er...beefy...um ...junior-missile sized guys??

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:03 am

A great looking functional garment at a great price. What more could we ask for? Well, I guess bigger sizes for the stout crowd....Otto

Noe · Post by **Noe** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:04 pm

Will your future model have a way to attach voiders?

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:10 pm

OH

MY

FRIGGIN

GAWD!!!!!!

must buy one
must buy one
must buy one
must buy one

How bout points for the elbows and pauldrons and the ones on the bottom

Any 14th c pics? Need anyone to test it out???? (He asked hopefully?)

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:23 pm

Hey Scott, Hows it going?, She said she could send the points seperatley. I think I'd have Kate sew them on , just to make sure you got them in the right locations.Maybe let Gwen do the points for the cuiesses and spaulders and use those for a guide on how to attacth the elbow and arm bits...Otto

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:48 pm

As soon as these are available, I'll buy one of the canvas/fustian ones.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:43 pm

Hey Otto

How you been?

Got the seminar set for here

Going to the Pole Axe thing in Dallas

Baby is a lil engin of destruction.
Kate is good.

I love smackin villians for a livin.

went to the dark side of the force....i was trying to be good but you know what they say. Quicker, easier, more seductive and they were right!
:twisted:

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:08 pm

The points are not stitched to the fabric, they are threaded through eyelets in the fabric. If you have a close look at the hip area of Dom's doublet you'll see a grid of eyelets. That grid allows the wearer to position points where necessary for hanging legs, much like the grid of holes in the arming pourpoints we're making for Mandrake.

For the arms, both Dom and Steve determined the location of the holes by holding the arm in place and marking where the holes needed to be. It's really quite simple, not difficult at all. The important thing is to make sure the holes are up high enough. If in doubt, it's always better to place the hole 1/4" to 1/2" higher than you think it should be-- the limb will have a tendency to sag, so you want to allow enough room to allow for that sag.

Gwen

Patton Lives · Post by **Patton Lives** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:43 pm

So if I understand correctly, one could purchase additional eyelets cut out, such as another grid set at the elbow and forearm for independant vambraces and couters, once the 14th century version is available?

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:59 am

Hi Drachus-

14 th C. armour is different than 15th, so the placement of holes in the arming coat will be different. I haven't gotten far enough along to start thinking about where the placement holes will be yet!