typical weight of a maille hauberk

Stosh · Post by **Stosh** » Wed Mar 06, 2002 4:38 pm

I made a hauberk as my first piece of armor... At the time I didn't have access to the internet and only used a couple of pictures to go on. I started by twisting wire around an arrow shaft to make the " spring" This worked ok but was a killer on the thumb and wrists... After I decided I was crazy

I decided they must have used some sort of crank... off i went to weld a crank out of rod and some scrap plate...... after a while ( days into weeks) I decided to screw it and attached a drill to the opposite end of my crank.

very happY with electricity...... Off I went on my merry way ... I put in about 9 months of work about 4-6 hours a day weaving and making more links.... tv for back ground... radio.... mail at lunch ..... mail in the morning ... I live making maille .... I even dreamed that I was making maille when I slept.. What I want to know is how much did Typical maille weigh? ... Mine weighs about 30 pounds and if people were out to get me I dont think I would want it to cover less!! back to my question... Is 30 pounds too heavy for maille? and How much should it weigh? Thanks

Stosh

Galileo · Post by **Galileo** » Wed Mar 06, 2002 4:43 pm

Really depends on the size of wire and what type of metal it is.

30 pounds is not unreasonable, unless it's aluminum

G--

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Wed Mar 06, 2002 4:49 pm

Historically a maille hauberk ranged between about 16-20 pounds IIRC. Mine weighs about 20.

I'm sorta guessing that you used about 1/4" id and 16 gauge wire. That's about what weight would work for that.

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The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Stosh · Post by **Stosh** » Wed Mar 06, 2002 5:12 pm

The links very a small amount because most were made by hand... I started with 18 ga then switched over to 16ga .. links are some what mixed heavier over vital parts... Its size is actually a little smaller than 1/4" so the weive is tighter... I would post a picture if I was not at work..

Stosh

p.s. does the time period in which the armour was produce effect the weight as well as the gage and size?

Stosh · Post by **Stosh** » Wed Mar 06, 2002 5:21 pm

oh ya I used galvenized steel because i figured If I spent the time to make it I didnt want the darn thing going to rust! the next one I make I will use stainless or aluminum rivited.. even though now I can make a foot of butted maille in a blink of the eye

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Wed Mar 06, 2002 5:40 pm

Butted maille almost always weighs more than riveted maille of the same ring I.D.

This is because riveted rings are essentially solid, while butted rings hold together only by virtue of the stiffness of the wire, which is often directly related to how thick the wire is.

For a research article on the relative strengths of butted rings, click here:
http://www.forth-armoury.com/research/fea_butted/strength_simulation_.htm

For example, a common wire thickness for rings of 3/8" ID is 14GA. For SCA combat use, you should go no thinner than 16GA wire for this ID. However, my riveted rings of 18GA (nearly half as thick as 14GA) are stronger than either one.

My "3/4" sleeved shirts:
[img]http://www.forth-armoury.com/Product_Catalog/shirts/hauberk1.jpg[/img]

have 18GA riveted rings of 3/8" ID. They weigh 18 pounds.

Other riveted maille shirts on the market, such as those sold by Museum Replicas, are made of 16GA wire, and weigh approximately 25 pounds.

Butted shirts of 14GA ID would weigh even more, say 35+ pounds.

Riveted maille is, of course, the authentic method of making replica medieval combat maille.

Steve

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Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!

bela of kaffa · Post by **bela of kaffa** » Wed Mar 06, 2002 6:03 pm

would that be an english hauberk, or a house hauberk...

thump; ahhhhhhhh.....

bela

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:58 pm

My chainmail hauberk wieghts $45 lbs and I'm only 5'7" -so your pretty lucky...

(^_^)

cheval · Post by **cheval** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 2:42 pm

Several haubergeons are listed in the Wallace catalogues, IIRC they are between 12 and 18lbs. Two modern hauberk reconstructions made from rings comparable in size and weight to historical samples that I have weigh 18 and 21 pounds, respectively (the first is from SoFC and the second is both significantly longer and has long sleeves).

So yes, 30lbs is on the heavy side. And Hjalmr, I'm so sorry *eg*... -c-

[This message has been edited by cheval (edited 03-07-2002).]

Prince Of Darkmoor · Post by **Prince Of Darkmoor** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:02 pm

Butted maille almost always weighs more than riveted maille of the same ring I.D.

I don't know, Steve. Take 18ga 3/8" rings for example. A butted ring only needs enough wire to go around and meet up to the other butt, but a riveted ring needs more wire than that in order to create an overlap. So let's say you use 20% overlap - your rings are going to weigh 20% more than regular butted rings. Plus, you're adding a sliver more weight by putting a rivet into the ring.

Unless, of course, flattening the rings makes them lighter

I made myself a 14ga 3/8" galvanized shirt that is waist length with mid length sleeves and it weighs right around 35lbs. But it has a 62" chest...

Then again, I just made a shirt for a 5yr old and it weighed 4lbs. Gotta love 14ga 1/2" aluminum

[This message has been edited by Prince Of Darkmoor (edited 03-07-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Prince Of Darkmoor (edited 03-07-2002).]

Stosh · Post by **Stosh** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 4:30 pm

Seems that most peolpe are telling me that 20lbs. seems about right....humm the mailles a done deal so...Why don't I just lose ten pounds off my self and call it even....

...now only if I could wear it all the time then I wouldn't ever notice the weight.. If only they wouldnt mind at work

P.S. does any one know a trick about removing that strange Metal smell from the galvinized links? I dont mind it but my wife states that it stinks.

[This message has been edited by Stosh (edited 03-07-2002).]

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 7:53 pm

"I don't know, Steve. Take 18ga 3/8" rings for example."

Except you generally can't make 3/8" ID butted rings out of 18GA wire; they will pull apart.

Steve

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Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!

cheval · Post by **cheval** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 3:21 am

PoD: "Take 18ga 3/8" rings for example."

A hauberk made from 18ga butted rings will pull apart from it's own weight, Clay. It certainly won't survive the rigours of combat... -c-

Arland · Post by **Arland** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 9:20 am

The shirt I have weighs just under 15lbs. Just below mid thigh when belted and full sleeves. It's welded stainless with a .8mm wire and 6mm OD rings.

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Baron Arland the Bastard
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/rivetedmaille

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 11:09 am

My Barons hauberk weights 40 lbs (5lbs less then mine) and he's 5' 10". My hauberk is so heavy that I am going to have to make another, lighter hauberk, to prevent serious back problems (more serious then what I already have that is.)

I am figuring on a 16g, 3/8" split ring hauberk that wieghts in the niegborhood of 15-20lbs.

By the way, thanks for thinking of me cheval. I apriciate the sympathy. Lol.....

(^_^)

[This message has been edited by hjalmr (edited 03-08-2002).]

Prince Of Darkmoor · Post by **Prince Of Darkmoor** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 11:33 am

Guys, I wasn't talking about using that stuff for combat - I was just referring to the weight difference. It really doesn't matter what gauge and ID you're using and I shouldn't have even mentioned it...

The fact is that riveted maille rings are heavier compared to butted rings of the same gauge and inner diameter, which is what I hoped the bulk of my post above would convey.

Oh, and good morning

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Salinas Swordsman
Darkmoor Armoury

Stosh · Post by **Stosh** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 12:05 pm

In the future I will make one out of 16ga ss rivited maille.. Right now I am more apt to make plate.

Is there a way to cover or remove the smell of of galvanized maille? or do I just have to make another suit?

Stosh

cheval · Post by **cheval** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 12:48 pm

Stosh, 18ga is closer to most historical mail (at least, it's the prettiest *g*).

As for the smell, you're stuck with it unless you want to try to pickle the zinc off. I haven't done this myself, but someone here on the Board might be able to advise you. I'ld hazard it's pretty messy, and then you'ld have to oil it up really good, so then it would smell like oiled iron, which has it's own particular 'perfume'.

My suggestion is sell what you have ASAP (eBay might be a good place to start) and use the proceeds to either buy new wire and a set of tools from Liebart, or use it as a downpayment on one of SoFC's shirts (with the smaller neckholes, right, Steve *beg*?)... -c-

Stosh · Post by **Stosh** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 2:50 pm

Money is not the problem. All I have to do is work a few more hours of overtime and save if I want something bought. Sell it? I don't think so. The links are a smaller than anything I have seen for sale. Plus I would not recieve the amount of money I think its worth.. If it was just something I Just made for the heck of it or only as a study, I wouldnt mind. But I copied a sketch I drew when I went to warwick castle near London. At the time armour was just a passing curiosity. So, I guess spending so much time on it has produced emotional value. Making it priceless to me. Hummm, Does that make me weird? If I made another one I wouldn't mind selling it or something in plate ( more likey give it away). I always work my hardest to make every thing I make as High quality as possible. I find that if I sell something people only place the doller amount to define the "worth" of the Item. But like wise, If I give it to some one who apriciates it already and knows how much work went into its production , they commonly value the item far beyond measurable price. Am I making any sence? The value based not on price but on something more intangable. I know people who have things I make over 12years ago and still value them. And like wise I know people who lose the apriciation of the item after a few years. Because they bought it? Or maby It just an internal drive that makes me give things to people that I know will apriciate and sell tho those individuals I am not sure of? Does anyone else find this true or am I just strange?

Stosh

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 4:52 pm

"The fact is that riveted maille rings are heavier compared to butted rings of the same gauge and inner diameter, which is what I hoped the bulk of my post above would convey."

Oh I get it. Well, then let me ammend what I said:

"Butted maille almost always weighs more than riveted maille of the same ring I.D."

To this:

Butted maille almost always weighs more than riveted maille of the same ring I.D. - because you have to use thicker wire for butted maille of a given I.D. than you do for riveted of the same I.D.

The end result is this: If you want to make 3/8" ID butted rings, you don't want to go anythinner than 16GA wire. But you can go much thinner with riveted rings, and thus they will be lighter.

For any given ID, you can use thinner wire with a riveted ring than you can with a butted one.

Steve

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Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!

Stosh · Post by **Stosh** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 5:14 pm

[img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/cool.gif[/img]

phoffman · Post by **phoffman** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:59 pm

I made my own haubergeron out of 14ga. 3/8" I.D. rings and it weighed in at around 45lbs.

After wearing that around at the Fair, one season I decided that the purchase of Steve Sheldon's haubergerons was worth it.

I enjoy it only being 18lbs.

Now i am helping a friend make a shirt 14ga. 3/8" I.D. and at almost 3 quarters done it weights 20lbs. And he is a slim person.

[This message has been edited by phoffman (edited 03-10-2002).]

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 6:46 pm

Being a lazy chap, I would appreciate a wedge riveted stainless shirt, but that's me.

And I have one of the heaviest hauberks I've handled, its also one of the toughest. 11.5 GA high tension wire with 1/2" id...

-+G

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 1:11 am

Stosh,

30 lbs. is not to heavy for a mail hauberk. The 'Kungslena' hauberk from the early 13th centuy weighs 15.3 kg, about 33 lbs. Admittedly, this example is corroded in a solid roll, so we don't know what size person it fits, how long the sleeves are, etc., but presuming a long sleeved, mid-thigh example (possiby with attached hood), 30 lbs. does not seem ureasonable for this time frame. Likewise, Claude Blair cites a 14th century Italian haubergeon in the Royal Scottish Museum at Edinburgh as weighing 31 lbs. This may be contrasted with the A2 in the Wallace Collection which weighs 19.8 lbs., but is dated to the second quarter of the 14th century. Shirt A1 from circa 1400 weighs a measly 9.14 lbs., but is also a half-sleeved example.

Several factors affected weight of mail hauberks within our period of study. Style, which might call for longer hems or sleeves could add weight. The size of the warrior also affected weight, with larger shirts being needed by taller and heavier men. I suspect that hauberks utilizing smaller rings made with lighter wire were more expensive, since they required a greater investment of the panzermacher's time in assembling 3x more rings as well as higher material costs from the wire-drawers extra steps. Therefore, 'munitions grade' hauberks were probably of a heavier nature with larger rings (12mm - 14mm outer diameter is documentable in the 13th and 14th centuries). Also a factor, "Is the mail a pimary defense, or was it worn beneath other armor?" Later mail shirts could be made lighter since they complemented plate armor or brigandines worn over them. The 13th century armorer had more limited choices, and may have made armor more effective by making it thicker, and therefore heavier. Again, 30lbs is not too heavy for a mail hauberk used as a primary defense during the 'Age of Mail', but I'd want a horse to carry the load before layering a pair-of-plates over it.

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:02 am

I have always wondered if maille wasn't heavier, on the average, during the period when it was the primary form of protection as opposed to later eras when it was merely reinforcement underneath plate or used as supplementary armour. It would make sense to me, at any rate, if earlier hauberks weighed around 30 pounds while later ones averaged around 15 or so...

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 11:21 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Joaquin:
I have always wondered if maille wasn't heavier, on the average, during the period when it was the primary form of protection as opposed to later eras when it was merely reinforcement underneath plate or used as supplementary armour. It would make sense to me, at any rate, if earlier hauberks weighed around 30 pounds while later ones averaged around 15 or so...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very good point -I would probably say yes, it was. Then again, what do I know?

(^_^)