Bascinet: Distance between holes

william · Post by **william** » Tue May 03, 2005 4:23 pm

Hi all,

I'd like to make two modifications to my new bascinet:

1. Change the verveille pattern
2. Add holes for a sewn-in liner

This raises two questions:

a) how close can I get to the existing verveille holes (7/16 diam.) without weakening the structure?

b) what would be the ideal distance between the edge and the liner holes as well as between the holes - most of the verveille holes are a little more than 1/2" off the edge.

Note: The bascinet is made from 12ga stainless.

Thanks,
William

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Tue May 03, 2005 7:14 pm

1/2" from the edge is fine, assuming you mean to the edge of the hole. You would generally want 2x diameter between the holes, or a little more. The vervelle holes can be a couple inches apart. For the liner, I would probably make two holes relatviely close together near the edge, and have a space of an inch or two between them.

william · Post by **william** » Wed May 04, 2005 4:57 am

@ Alcyoneus:

Thanks for the insight! Do I understand it right that you use sets of two holes to sew in the liner? And if this is so, how many attachment points do you use?

@ all:

Any other insight?

Cheers,
William

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Wed May 04, 2005 5:14 am

Do I understand it right that you use sets of two holes to sew in the liner? And if this is so, how many attachment points do you use?

No, the wider-spaced, half-inch-in, 3/16" holes are for the vervelles -- sounds like you have a vervelle line that hugs the bottom of the bascinet and the sides of the face opening -- and the much smaller, closer holes right at the edges are for stitching the liner in. If you're trying to maximize the strength -- not much of a problem with a twelve gauge anything -- just keep the stitch holes staggered between or away from the vervelle holes.

[Edit to ask] Seven-sixteenths diameter holes? For vervelles?

One other idea: sew in the lining with two or three separate threads in case a persnickety marshal wants to inspect the welds of your helmet skull. Then you only need undo some of the stitching to allow the marshal to peer in. The heavy, cordlike waxed nylon thread for stitching awls serves well for the purpose. Though a suspension-patterned but quilted/stuffed bascinet liner you could open up the center parts of would work even better for inspections of the interior... probably not exactly historical but it would be a tidy piece of SCA engineered design in period materials. The suspension "fingers" would also offer a place to put strips of closed-cell foam in for those Kingdoms or not-heavily-experienced marshals that insist on having the blue Smurf blubber as a last line of defense -- strips of the stuff wouldn't trap nearly as much heat.

Now I've got a bascinet detail question for the readership at large: can we come up with a historical bascinet that had stitching holes across the brow? There are bascinets aplenty with stitching holes on the bottom edge and either side of the face opening -- but for sure across the top? Period art shows decorative camail straps across the top -- might these hide a row of stitches? Other period art shows a row of tiny somethings, usually drawn in as several tick marks if shown at all, across the bascinet's brow.

william · Post by **william** » Wed May 04, 2005 5:41 am

Very good description, Konstantin!

The verveille holes are along the bottom edge and the sides of the face opening. I'd rather have a pattern that does not look like an "L" but ends in an angled line. That's why I want to add some holes. On the other hand I'd rather live with the "L" than risk the helmet - but if understand it right it sounds like the double-diameter rule will be enough of a safety margin.

Cheers,
William

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Wed May 04, 2005 5:49 am

Thanks, but seven-sixteenths-inch diameter vervelle holes? Those are giant vervelles!

And I presume you've also read "Padding for Bascinet," here: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=547045#547045

william · Post by **william** » Wed May 04, 2005 9:43 am

my mistake - it's 7/32 ...

William
*metric guy*

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Wed May 04, 2005 1:00 pm

Sorry about your having to use metric, William. ;-)

You will often find holes in pairs. This was a redundancy factor. If one set of sewing broke, so what? There were plenty more to make sure it stayed where you intended it to. I'll check my books later, but I'm sure there were holes across the brow as well.

Klaus the Red · Post by **Klaus the Red** » Wed May 04, 2005 2:29 pm

can we come up with a historical bascinet that had stitching holes across the brow?

Sure, plenty of 'em- here are two examples. The first one is from the German National Museum, and the second one is a Missaglia piece that was up for auction recently in Switzerland, I believe. Plenty more where these came from.

Klaus

[img]http://nickfriend.fatcow.com/DHMBecmitBrunne.jpg[/img]

[img]http://nickfriend.fatcow.com/missaglia_basc.jpg[/img]

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Wed May 04, 2005 9:25 pm

Thanks! Such bascinets seemed disinclined to appear in AAOTMK, Oakeshott, or Blair & Tarassuk. I look forward to whatever Alcyoneus can find.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Thu May 05, 2005 1:05 am

It would pretty much be more of the same. ;-)

Notice how far the vervelle holes are from the edge on the lower bascinet, that is just a little further than I would place them, although the lining holes are just fine. The leather that sandwiches the mail should cover the holes you stitched the liner in with, and reduce the frequency by which you will need to replace them. The leather should extend to just past the edge of the metal.